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On the nature of the Confederacy, the American Civil War, and Slavery

Discussion in 'Historical Debates' started by Tambourine, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. Prim969

    Prim969 Member

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    Métis you say 1.5 million. Shad says 5 million. There seems to be quite variation in the count. Though your figures would make a lot more sense with why the possible transportation of the Africans Back to their homeland was discussed and possibly feasible over a period of time. Anyway I shall do a little number checking on that figure myself That’s a long time for such laws to stay in place almost 80yrs after the civil war. Oh I see your going by the 1820 count the reason for the difference with Shads1860 count. I did do the checking on the 1860 figures on 3 sites they are not far off Shads tally around the 4 million mark
     
    #181 Prim969, May 11, 2020
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
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  2. Prim969

    Prim969 Member

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    Tambourine I’m sure that’s correct but still the British Empire was very efficient at shipping people to new destinations around the world to where they wanted them to be. And they could have chosen to ship many more back to their homelands if they had wanted to do so..
     
    #182 Prim969, May 11, 2020
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  3. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I never said white supremacy was a moral wrong. Quit trying to twist my words. I said that which was wrong was your presenting the South as white supremacist and not the North. And you did it to place the South in a bad light. But I proved you wrong and so you had to back away from it.

    You presented white supremacy first in post (101). "the white supremacy ideology that dominated Southern politics" You claim because of this white supremacy the South went to war. (105) I gave you the Lincoln/Douglas debates to prove you wrong. (107) You claim you need verification of that quote. (109) This shows you were unaware of it. You then take one of your breaks. (111) When you come back you ignore it and say nothing but that you can't get your head around some things.

    My point is you clearly wanted to paint the South as white supremacist and evil. You were ignorant of the North's white supremacy as well. Once it was shown you, you tried to ignore it. You even denied Lincoln's white supremacy. But I proved you wrong.

    Now you try and equate it with the 'morality' discussion as if it was the same. But it is not. You are, as I said, crawfishing.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  4. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    That is plain English. Quit trying to use 'English as a second language' excuse. You understand it. You don't want to admit it. How did you understand all those 'declarations of secession' by certain states? See? You 'understand' what you want, and claim ignorance to the rest. Another handy tact.

    Why is it not clear what I think he means. Have you not 'understood' what I am saying? Of course you do.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  5. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I understand. But, as I said, clemancy by a Kansas governor does not remove the charge of murder by the state. Clemancy is not a pardon. And it doesn't do anything to the U.S. indictment for those murders. And the U.S. (North) had him and let him go.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  6. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Lincoln did keep them in slavery.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  7. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    Americans actually tried to repatriate former slaves in Liberia before the American Civil War, but as far as I can tell that did not go down quite as they had hoped.
     
  8. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    No he didn't. He helped pass the 13th Amendment, remember?

    Which is exactly what the Southern slaveholders feared he would do. In the words of David Clopton, a Representative from Alabama:
    (Source)
    Clearly, the South considered Lincoln an enemy to slavery, and feared that he would try his best to end it.
    And eventually, he would do exactly what they went to war to prevent.
     
    #188 Tambourine, May 11, 2020
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  9. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    No, I have not understood what you are saying. That is why I asked you to clarify your statements.

    It is common courtesy to elaborate on one's position when asked for clarification. I will gladly do the same for my position if you ask.

    Furthermore, we were previously debating our own positions on the subject, not anybody else's.
    So, could you please explain, or summarize, your own position in your own words?
     
    #189 Tambourine, May 11, 2020
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  10. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    Neither did I. I said: "And I am not going to discuss whether slavery or white supremacy are moral wrongs."



    At no point in this debate have I said that the North was not racist.

    Characterizing the South as a slave economy based on white supremacism is not placing "the South in a bad light", it is a simple statement of fact. If you think the South's white supremacism is "placing" it "in a bad light", then that is your problem to come with, not mine.

    As I said, I am not interested in morality tales. If you think that racist slaveholders are evil, then you have to cope with that on your own.

    What I'm interested in debating is why the Southern slaveholders first seceded, and then went to war.


    What exact statements led you to that conclusion?

    No, I simply did not mention it because I didn't think it would be relevant, as we are debating the Confederacy's motivation to go to war, not the Union's.

    You seem very upset by my bringing up that slavery in the South was rooted in white supremacy. Were you ignorant of this, or is there some other reason for your indignance here?

    Either way, it is of no concern for this debate. If you want to debate the prevalence of racism in the Union or seek moral justification for the Confederacy, then I humbly request you start a new thread.
     
  11. Prim969

    Prim969 Member

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    You mean Cape Mesurado. Well yes a lot of the freed slaves had mixed reservations about moving to Liberia after all they had given their sweat and blood to build America. So to start all over again was not a light thing considering that the land brought in 1821 was only 36 miles long and 3 miles wide and not the size that Liberia is today. Though some 12000 did take up the offer and relocated. In like 40yrs : ) So not so successful
     
  12. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    The 13th amendment was not passed by Lincoln. It was passed by the Reconstruction Court after the war. Lincoln freed no slaves. He kept the slaves in slavery in the areas in the South that the Yankees had taken over. He didn't free them. But he could have.

    So Lincoln's racism is no different.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    #192 Good-Ole-Rebel, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  13. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I have elaborated on my position. I have supported it with a quote from Jeff Davis .

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  14. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't bother me that black slavery was a product of white supremacy. What bothers me is your blowing smoke.

    If you want to know why the South seceded go back and read the Jeff Davis quote I gave you.

    Is all this smoke of yours an effort to not reply to post (160) and (161)? You still need to reply.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    #194 Good-Ole-Rebel, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  15. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    The problem is the specific clemency was dropping of charges.
     
  16. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    The number is pretty shocking when you consider whites in the South were only around 4 million and declining due to war casualties.
     
  17. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    Clemency is not dropping of charges. It is not a pardon. And, again, that was just Kansas. Brown was wanted by the Federal govt. That didn't change.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  18. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    No, you have not elaborated on your position. You've pointed me at a quote you posted days ago, and refused to elaborate any further, and in fact even refused my request to clarify your position.

    You also have so far avoided answering my questions about that quote:
    Are you going to address these at some point?
     
  19. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    Please support your claims.

    Yes, because that was the only way to preserve slavery.

    I know John Brown exists. What of him?
    So I presented something which I failed to present? How does that work?

    Finally, a source!
    So we agree that the South had to secede if it wanted to preserve slavery.


    As I have shown in the beginning, Georgia and South Carolina claimed that they seceded to preserve slavery.

    And as you said, the Union (not the North, the Union - Delaware and Maryland were slave states, remember?) was not going to just let them secede. So in order to preserve slavery, the reason for their secession, they had to go to war.

    They were a threat to slavery and pro-slavery advocates.
    But yes, by advocating an end to slavery, and by actively engaging in actions to further that goal, abolitionists constituted, by their very existence, a threat to the Southern slave economy.

    As long as there were US citizens advocating an end to slavery, there was the threat of a government unsympathetic or actively hostile to the cause of slavery - which was realized when Lincoln came to power. And because of that threat to slavery, the South seceded.

    Wikipedia says that the amendment was passed in 1864 and ratified in 1865. Do you have sources which contradict that?
     
    #199 Tambourine, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  20. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    It only passed the senate in 1864, It still had to pass the house, and to be ratified by the states. That would include the Southern states. Lincoln died in April 1865. The 13th amendment was not ratified until Dec. 1865.

    This was accomplished through the dog and pony show of the Reconstruction Courts.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
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