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On the failure to find God's fingerprints ...

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Jayhawker Soule, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What caused the advent of bipedalism?
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well Jay,

    who can say WHAT or WHO caused the advent of bipedalism. I do know that I believe in evolution and God and find them congruous to the extreme.
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Apparently crystalonyx.
     
  4. niceguy

    niceguy Active Member

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    I believe in evolution so this is my suggestion.

    Standing up give you a better view of your surroundings. This will make it easier for you to survive since you can better see dangers and food and it gives you a better reach. You are more likely to pass on your genes. At some point your decedents have become a new species where everybody can stand up. Then some mutation occurs that allow an individual to carefully move while standing up (like a bear can do) thou it's unpractical for any longer distances. Over the generations this evolves to actual walking on two feets commonly seen in apes, thou they still prefer to run on all four. At some point we just prefer to be upright even when running, like us humans, especially since it gives us two free hands to operate (and carry) tools with.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    As do I.

    And the bear, which has been around considerably longer than hominids, continues to walk on all fours.

    The question, however, is not the relative advantages of bipedalism but, rather, how it came to be an option in the first place. To select for a trait it must first exist within the population. So, what caused the advent of bipedalism?
     
  6. kai

    kai ragamuffin

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    maybe our thumbs ?
     
  7. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    It's an extension of the ability to climb. Our earliest hominid ancestors 'walked' along branches (like many tree dwelling apes do today). In the open woodlands that our lineage specialized in, being able to move from one group of trees to another swiftly and safely was selected for.
    Those individuals who walked upright could spot danger as well as being able to carry items and move with ease.
    (we are built to run, though few of us ever do anymore. ;) )

    The more interesting question is why didn't the other ground dwelling apes become more bipedal? It may have to do with sexual competition... That is males with larger stronger upper bodies are more fit when it comes to fighting for a mate. Short legs provide better leverage/lower center of gravity.
    Knuckle walking may prevent stress on the wrist that flat palm walking would not.
    Environment may also play a key role... in the deep forests standing upright doesn't aid in spotting predators as looking over the grass does. Having a shorter stature however allows you to move more swiftly through the bushes.

    As for bears, they spend little of their time on two legs. Mostly for observance and threat/conflict.
    They have massive forelimbs for digging and as use as primary weapons. (like the apes they have a low center of gravity to aid in shoving contests)

    Just a few thoughts.

    wa:do
     
  8. oldcajun

    oldcajun __BE REAL

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    <<On the failure to find God's fingerprints ...>>

    Do you really think they've searched for "God's fingerprints"? I don't think so.:rolleyes:
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That's what the study of orangutans suggests. Now, yet again, what caused the advent of bipedalism?
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Please pollute some other thread.
     
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  11. niceguy

    niceguy Active Member

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    A long line of useful mutations that where found to be useful in the environment that the creature in question where living in. And as it been pointed out, bipedalism are not necessarily that useful in all environments. We also need to keep in mind that sometimes, transitional mutations may be useless in one area but later forms allow for a creature to expand into an formerly unsuitable area. It's like the knuckle walking apes in the dense forest that been mentioned, no need to become bipedal. On the plains bipedalism are better suited but when fully evolved in us humans, we can take tools into our hands and conquer the dense forest.
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    A simple failure in procedure on the part of celestial CSI.
     
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  13. kai

    kai ragamuffin

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    i am sticking with the prehensile thumb , it made a hand out of a foot. it would be no good to stand up and reach out for something, with a foot on the end of your arm would it.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    How fortuitous! I wonder what caused those particular mutations?
     
  15. UnTheist

    UnTheist Well-Known Member

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    Would I be on the right track if I said the words "random mutations"?
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Sounds good to me. What test(s) might we run to distinguish between "just lucky" and an act of intervention?
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Or heterochrony, or ...
     
  18. kai

    kai ragamuffin

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    ....or time for me to bow out, too many syllables :)
     
  19. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    The desire to chase a leather ball.

    Is bipedalism more difficult to explain than other traits, or is your point something to do with the difficulty of pinning down causes?
     
  20. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    There is no way to do that. It is impossible.

    The most we can say is that if there has been intervention then the effects of that intervention look identical to the effects of random chance.

    How can we then claim that evolution is more likely/reasonable than a theistic alternative?
     
    #20 Fluffy, Jul 24, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
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