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On the bible judging the individual, and letting the collective go free

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Jan 7, 2021.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    In presupposing that societal organization revolves around the individual, wherever people might organize, this seems to in no way reflect the shape of general human behavior, and consequence. Though individuals might act in alignment with the good or the bad, they as faux 'individuals' are scarcely free of their actual status as production points, shaped by the forces of each system that preceded them. To say then, that each man is responsible for his own sin, though he is randomly thrown into a world where prior men work to construct qualities, is a non-sequitur and a reflection of human vanity

    I believe individuals can exist, but they are extremely scarce. Most people do not go even a couple steps in that direction, of if they do, they turn around and head back on the path they were set to ride on. Some people become individuals, but they arrive at it only after a lifetime of experience. Becoming an individual is sort of morally ambiguous, as it can lead to qualities that are either admirable or dreadful. The only change is that this person is truly free of all influences, and has decided what everything truly means for himself. It is exceedingly rare as I said, and there probably only a few of these people that exist in every generation.

    It is unclear if they even affect the whole all that much, though if they somehow do, I suppose they are somehow more accountable than others. I don't really believe that I am an individual, or that I have really met any. I should suppose that the individual would feel secure in finally knowing that they are one? In any case, aspiring to be one seems to be somewhat of a vain endeavor, though it would extricate a person out of the motions of the river. It seems that the weight of ambiguity might only increase once one is to jump out of it, and so it is not recommended, as it only saddles a person with information and responsibility which they probably can't handle

    So in general, each individual 'cannot be judged for their own sin,' because this is giving ordinary people far more credit for what they are, than for what they really are.
     
    #1 ideogenous_mover, Jan 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  2. Treasure Hunter

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    Your critique is valid and to be taken seriously. The reason why it is still necessary to place responsibility on the individual is because doing so facilitates individualization. As to why we should become individuals - that gets into faith about the claims of Jesus. If someone is not open to the possibility that the human individual has a telos, then the perspective you detailed is the right one.
     
  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    It presupposes it. Or presupposes a society where it is lauded

    I am open to that but just think it's kinda rare
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    @ideogenous_mover

    Just a reminder...
    The Tanakh, or Old Testament (yuck I hate that term) looks at Israel as a people, not so much as individuals. When Achan hides the gold under his tent, God says, "Israel has sinned." Throughout the Tanakh God deals with Israel as a group, rather than as individuals, primarily.
     
  5. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I don't know.. if you search for 'each man is responsible for his own sin,' don't you get a number of places where that concept comes up? When you try to interpret what Deut. 24:16 means for example, this is surely making people into individuals , in spite of negative effects that could confront whole societies. If a generation of fathers does something heroic, does that not save their children? It does. If the generation of the fathers does something stupid, like build all the drinking water pipes out of lead or something, does this not harm their children? So this verse seems quite anti-collective. "Sin" hits a society, and it might topple everything. The progeny help maintain things for the elderly, the elderly paved the way for the progeny. Either side of the boat can fail, and it might sink the whole boat
     
    #5 ideogenous_mover, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:10 AM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021 at 11:15 AM
  6. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

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    Birds of a feather. People flock to those who are similar to their beliefs. As a Christian, each of us have chosen that path, and do our utmost not to stray, like you said. Are we individuals, to a degree, but if that degree threatens to disrupt the unity, then we must bring ourselves back in line with scripture.
     
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, it is also true that each man is responsible for his own sin--but that simply means that you can't have person B punished INSTEAD OF person A, the perp. It doesn't rule out Israel being dealt with as a nation.

    For example, I think it only makes sense to say that when Judah fell into sin (idolatry, violence, not giving alms to the poor...) that there were still a remnant that remained faithfully obedient to God. Yet still all of Judah went into Captivity.
     
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