On Reincarnation: Baha'i & Vaisnava

[Paraprakrti]

I hope you don't mind if I pick this apart.

“CHAPTER 81

“Question. - What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?

“Answer. - The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality - not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.

Come on now. "We're not going to deride anyone's beliefs. We're just gonna tell you that they aren't the reality." Why is this double-talk necessary?

Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.

The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect - that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning - that is to say, in the first cycle - is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.

This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.

Oh, that is simple. Reincarnation means the continuation of the status quo. You are changing bodies in this life from baby to child to youth to adult to old person. Similarly, at the time of death, you change bodies again. If material attachment remains, then the same process continues. Hence, the burden is on the person who wishes to say that the body-changing process stops. However, this is not to say that it cannot be stopped; Only to argue that this process is the default for conditioned souls. It is what typically occurs. That is the logic behind reincarnation.

“But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable.

The "therefore" part doesn't follow by necessity. That there are no perfectly identical material objects really has nothing to do with whether or not a soul "repeats" its existence in the same world of appearance. However, just to play along as if this argument works, I can then point out that the same soul repeats its existence from the time it indwells a child body to the time it inhabits an adult body. The bottom line here is, "repeats" is an arbitrary concept. The other option is to avoid the argument altogether by denying that the soul is repeating its existence when it takes a body after the death of another in the same way that we can deny that the soul repeats its existence when it changes from child to adult body. You seem to have no problem with the latter form of "repeating" (or whatever we decide to call it.) So, logic necessitates that you have no problem with the former case.

As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.

Yet you have no problem with the "repetition" of the soul from child to adult body.

No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.

Agreed. However, this doesn't preclude reincarnation. While God is the cause of acquiring perfections, we happen to be dwelling within a world of bodily change. The situation is incidental in this regard. You happen to change bodies all the while you seek liberation/salvation/perfection.

 

[BruceDLimber]

t is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.

Come on now. "We're not going to deride anyone's beliefs. We're just gonna tell you that they aren't the reality." Why is this double-talk necessary?
You protest too much: As he said, he was simply stating facts, not condemning anyone or any belief.

You are changing bodies in this life from baby to child to youth to adult to old person. Similarly, at the time of death, you change bodies again.

Inaccurate: the Next Life isn't physical; hence there's no "body" whatever.

I can then point out that the same soul repeats its existence from the time it indwells a child body to the time it inhabits an adult body.

Grossly misleading: it's the SAME BODY having gone through a gradual transformation, cell by cell! There's no "switch to a different body" whatever!
[Y[ou have no problem with the "repetition" of the soul from child to adult body.
Not so, as I just explained! There's no "repetition" because there's no point at which a definite alteration of any sort takes place.
Or are you going to argue also that you're an entirely different person today from who you were yesterday?

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...d-jesus-preach-reincarnation.html#post2480401
No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.

Agreed. However, this doesn't preclude reincarnation.

True, THAT doesn't preclude it.

But the simple fact remains that it doesn't exist, anyway, as the pasage explained.

And other passages make clear that EVERYONE goes on to the Next Life; there's no repetition of this life ever, for anyone!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vinayaka]

Opinions aren't facts.

 

[Paraprakrti]

t is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.

Come on now. "We're not going to deride anyone's beliefs. We're just gonna tell you that they aren't the reality." Why is this double-talk necessary?
You protest too much: As he said, he was simply stating facts, not condemning anyone or any belief.

But in stating those "facts," he is arguing against other beliefs. I have no problem with this, but why not be straight-forward about it?

Inaccurate: the Next Life isn't physical; hence there's no "body" whatever.

OK. And while you're waiting for "next life," reincarnation.

Grossly misleading: it's the SAME BODY having gone through a gradual transformation, cell by cell! There's no "switch to a different body" whatever!

This is a meaningless distinction. Change is change is change. You are in a world of bodily change. If this process ceases at the time of death, it is on you to explain what caused it to change.

[Y[ou have no problem with the "repetition" of the soul from child to adult body.

Not so, as I just explained! There's no "repetition" because there's no point at which a definite alteration of any sort takes place.
Or are you going to argue also that you're an entirely different person today from who you were yesterday?

No. The body is different. That's my point. If there is no repetition of the soul during one part of bodily change, why would there be in another?

Originally Posted by

BruceDLimber

No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.



True, THAT doesn't preclude it.

But the simple fact remains that it doesn't exist, anyway, as the pasage explained.

All I am doing is addressing the arguments the passage makes. I am not convinced of these so-called facts.

And other passages make clear that EVERYONE goes on to the Next Life; there's no repetition of this life ever, for anyone!

Why does one come to "this life" in the first place?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There was a similar Thread here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...15749-calling-all-bahai-hindu-rf-members.html

 

[Vinayaka]

There was a similar Thread here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...15749-calling-all-bahai-hindu-rf-members.html

Good point, and it got me nowhere then too, oh well, maybe next life time.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Speaking of the reincarnation aspect, is there a possibility that instead of dimensional (same life different parallel) that maybe this would happen on a different planet?

 

[BruceDLimber]

But in stating those "facts," he is arguing against other beliefs.

He is doing no such thing: he's merely stating positive facts, not "arguing against" anything else.

Inaccurate: the Next Life isn't physical; hence there's no "body" whatever.

OK. And while you're waiting for "next life," reincarnation.

Wrong, as the passage explained. The Next Life, as I understand it, commences immediately.

This is a meaningless distinction. Change is change is change. You are in a world of bodily change. If this process ceases at the time of death, it is on you to explain what caused it to change.

Why does one come to "this life" in the first place?

According to the Baha'i scriptures our purpose here is twofold:

• To acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both here and in the Next Life, and
• in aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing, spiritually-based civilization.

And the purpose of religion is to show us HOW to go about this!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Paraprakrti]

He is doing no such thing: he's merely stating positive facts, not "arguing against" anything else.

He certainly is arguing against something else. He presents two views of reincarnation and then proceeds to argue why they are impossible. That whole thing about souls not repeating is an attempted argument. Arguments consist of alleged facts.

Wrong, as the passage explained. The Next Life, as I understand it, commences immediately.

Immediately... at the arbitrary time of bodily death. Again, you need to explain why this change would automatically occur at the time of death.

According to the Baha'i scriptures our purpose here is twofold:

• To acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both here and in the Next Life, and
• in aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing, spiritually-based civilization.

So, what if those "spiritual virtues" aren't acquired in one lifespan?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Immediately... at the arbitrary time of bodily death. Again, you need to explain why this change would automatically occur at the time of death.

I "need" explain nothing: it simply happens.

So, what if those "spiritual virtues" aren't acquired in one lifespan?

Then one is spiritually handicapped in the Next Life and must remediate then to acquire them.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Paraprakrti]

I "need" explain nothing: it simply happens.

You seem to not understand that when you post an article that says something along the lines of, "here is why such or other is impossible..." those are debating words. I realize that, at the end of the day, you beieve what you believe regardless. But this is the Religious Debates section. So, naturally I am going to address an argument I can't agree with when I see it. You say that you don't need to explain anything. You're right. You similarly don't need to respond to this thread. I certainly appreciate when you do, but you don't really need to do it. However, for the sake of upholding the arguments of your position, as presented in your article, you would need to give reason for certain things.

Then one is spiritually handicapped in the Next Life and must remediate then to acquire them.

What does it mean to be "spiritually handicapped," and where does one reside during this time? What exactly is the "Next Life" for a person in this situation?

 

[BruceDLimber]

What does it mean to be "spiritually handicapped," and where does one reside during this time? What exactly is the "Next Life" for a person in this situation?

It means one's potentials and abilities are reduced, at least until said remediation happens.

And it isn't a "where" as the Next Life isn't a physical place, but rather a spiritual condition.

Further, our scriptures say that God will indeed assist EVERYONE eventually ultimately to achieve spiritual nearness to Him (the definintion of Heaven)!

Should you care to examine the Baha'i scriptures, which you can find here:

http://www.bahai-library.org

you can discover more details about all this.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Paraprakrti]

You know, when I need remediation, God sends me to the physical world. This idea of a remedial situation in the spiritual world is contradictory. "Spiritual world" means full realization.

 

[Muffled]

Speaking of the reincarnation aspect, is there a possibility that instead of dimensional (same life different parallel) that maybe this would happen on a different planet?

That is an interesting distinction. I just finished reading a version of the Gita and it repeatedly used the word planet but from the context it seems to me the word should have been plane (level or dimension). This would fit into the seven heavens concept where it is desirable to reincarnate to a higher heaven.

That is not to say that another planet is not having a time without evil. If our planet can have such a time then it would seem logical that other planets could have such a time. Theoretically one could bop from one planet to another and never have to endure evil in the physical world. That is depending on whether God would provide this for you.

 

[Muffled]

You know, when I need remediation, God sends me to the physical world. This idea of a remedial situation in the spiritual world is contradictory. "Spiritual world" means full realization.

I agree. I don't have any clue how one could think that remediation is possible in the spiritual state. My wife has spent a very long time in Heaven but in this physical state there are a lot of unredeemed sins. Heaven didn't eliminate those tendencies, it just eliminated their expression.

That is a nice concept but the truth is that most people go into the spiritual state without full realization. You can't define spiritual world that way because it simply isn't true. World is also a misnomer. There is no world in the spiritual state. That is the dicholtomy. Things are either physical or spiritual but are never both.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I agree. I don't have any clue how one could think that remediation is possible in the spiritual state. My wife has spent a very long time in Heaven but in this physical state there are a lot of unredeemed sins. Heaven didn't eliminate those tendencies, it just eliminated their expression.

That is a nice concept but the truth is that most people go into the spiritual state without full realization. You can't define spiritual world that way because it simply isn't true. World is also a misnomer. There is no world in the spiritual state. That is the dicholtomy. Things are either physical or spiritual but are never both.

Blue: OK...

Red: Then I don't know what you mean by "spiritual state" if not to entail realization of self and its relationship to the Supreme.