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On Günter Grass
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Clearly.
dust1n
Zindīq
And also, from the Dershowitz article... the nicest of the sources he states:
"Gunter Grass has always had a problem with Jews, from his early days as a member of the Hitler youth and Nazi SS to his most recent application of a nasty double standard to the Jewish state. But his ridiculous poem doesn't pose any security threat to Israel that would justify his physical exclusion from the country."
Is there any other information regarding Grass and his supposed anti-semitism? I can't find anything writings or public remarks by him that suggest so. If Grass has 'always had a problem with Jews' than why is nothing brought up other than at 17 he was drafted into the war (something that was tactifully reworded in this little bit... wouldn't you agree?) to this first ever mention of Israel in a poem? I mean.. this isn't a secluded incident amongst pro-Israeli/Israeli journalist.
I thought this was a little bit more respectable of an opinion, Gunter Grass' poem is more pathetic than anti-Semitic - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News even if it is entirely negative. At least the guy isn't perpetuating the very thing Grass seems to be critizing when we speaks about the silence associated with ideas being brushed aside because they claim to be innately anti-Jewish.
"Gunter Grass has always had a problem with Jews, from his early days as a member of the Hitler youth and Nazi SS to his most recent application of a nasty double standard to the Jewish state. But his ridiculous poem doesn't pose any security threat to Israel that would justify his physical exclusion from the country."
Is there any other information regarding Grass and his supposed anti-semitism? I can't find anything writings or public remarks by him that suggest so. If Grass has 'always had a problem with Jews' than why is nothing brought up other than at 17 he was drafted into the war (something that was tactifully reworded in this little bit... wouldn't you agree?) to this first ever mention of Israel in a poem? I mean.. this isn't a secluded incident amongst pro-Israeli/Israeli journalist.
I thought this was a little bit more respectable of an opinion, Gunter Grass' poem is more pathetic than anti-Semitic - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News even if it is entirely negative. At least the guy isn't perpetuating the very thing Grass seems to be critizing when we speaks about the silence associated with ideas being brushed aside because they claim to be innately anti-Jewish.
dust1n
Zindīq
I think your hubris is so pathetic that all of your good qualities that you might have regarding your intelligence or being are completely overshadowed and your ability to communicate with others who don't think exactly like you is pretty much non-existent. You critized someone's OP, made your own OP, and did pretty much the same thing the original OP did.
That is rubbish. My point in the original OP was precisely that it exposed the type of idiot-fringe antisemitic websites preferred by its author - unless, of course, you're truly stupid enough to believe that he stumbled upon it randomly using Google. If you find the Huffington Post or the Wall Steet Journal or - even - ynetnews (or Haaretz) to be equivalent cesspools then you have a far more fundamental problem than can or should be dealt with here.
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That is, of course, your right.
Geeze....all 3 screeds mention either "Hitler" or "anti-semitism" in order to demonize Grass.
Well, now we know their opinions. They don't like him or his poem.
It should be possible to say this without Nazi references.
Let's be nicer to each other too.
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dust1n
Zindīq
I don't think they are, and it's fair to critize the source. What I didn't get is why make a new OP about it, then provide three opinion pieces about the poem all slanted to your side. (By the way, I agree with you that the poem was poorly executed and in a lot of bad taste, very narrow, and not really that great. But the poem, as Haaretz notes, is not an anti-semitic. It's a poorly understood reaction to a very, very complicated historical phenomenon, but at least he does it with sincere concern for the danger of Iranian civilians.) Instead he was barred, and all it really seems to do is fuel people who are anti-semitic to find more anti-semitism in his piece when it really isn't there. Just my two cents.
dust1n
Zindīq
You're*
And no, I'm probably not! I will most certainly never be right, because people who claim to be so right and worthy of attention are too short-fused, douchey, abrasive and reactionary to even conduct a dialogue with people who aren't right.
By the way, I don't think pride has much to do with whether the prideful person is actually correct or not. But I take back what I said. I don't think you are hubristic, I apologize for that. But you are often relentlessly mean for reasons that never show themselves, and at best might appear in yet another passive-agressive comment, and there is no way you do this completely unaware you are doing it. I just think of hubris because you seem to take so much join in insulting people.
I created a new OP so that (a) I could focus my criticism of the first, while (b) having a thread where Grass and his poem could be discussed.
I referenced the three authors because they reflect my views on the man, the content of the poem, and his right to promote it without the Israeli government becoming hysterical. That there was no intent to pass off the three authors as impartial should have been obvious on the face of it.
dust1n
Zindīq
There! That of went great in the OP!
Obvious?
On Gunter Grass - here's three articles that essentially wrongly and poorly critize his character more than the poem...
Wait... are we suppose to be ignoring the topic when the site selection is bad? Or do we ignore the site selection now because you've made the OP, and talk just the topic? Maybe you can help address this after you've focused your on your critisism of the first post, even though it's not linked or even mentioned.
The rest I think we agree on, unless you share the sentiment that the guy is Anti-semetic. If that is the case, I'd ask for legitimate references to the claim.
We seem to agree to the extent that the poem really isn't that good. And that it probably was not the best to determine the guy persona not grata.
Anyways, sorry for my response; I tend to feel insulted when I am insulted.
Point taken. Thanks.
A question:
"We" are not 'suppose' to do anything. I chose to focus on the site selection because it was, in my opinion, egregious and symptomatic.
You need ignore nothing. I, for one, see no equivalence between the sewer sourced by the former OP and the Huffington Post, Wall Street Journal, and ynetnews. What about you?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Why does it matter what the 'source" of this story is, the facts of the case are pretty simple IMO.
In this thread it matters not at all.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
IMO he has the "right" to write poetry, I don't think the poem was even that controversial, but that could be argued. As far as being banned from entering Israel, honestly if I were making that decision I probably wouldn't let him in either.
However, it could be argued that there is no real reason to disallow him from entering Israel, as obviously he doesn't pose some sort of 'threat'.
However, it could be argued that there is no real reason to disallow him from entering Israel, as obviously he doesn't pose some sort of 'threat'.
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Absolutely.
I found it appalling.
I thought it was an embarrassing and counterproductive overreaction.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
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dust1n
Zindīq
See! My confusion was only partially rooted in my cognitive inabilities!
None, explicitly. I just didn't immediately get the point of making a second thread, but...
I see, I see. I don't blame you for focusing on it originally, I didn't understand the purpose of the second thread, and I legitimately didn't quite get the exact gist of what this thread because there was no specifics. I agree with you that your sources are obviously much more legitimate, respectable, and worth reading, and certainly it was more than suspicious had that OP came across that site... AND I can imagine that is really offensive and tiring to come across over and over... AND I can imagine and Israeli debate serves as a whole slew of frustration for most Jews.
But certainly, I still find it very inappropriate to claim the man was anti-Semitic because of the poem, and because we was drafted by the Nazi's at the age of 17. And certainly, such language is only solidifying the phenomenon Grass refers to as "the silence" in which he claims to break.
I noticed a lot about the poem is aimed specifically at Germans, in regards to national guilt of his countrymen. I found it peculiar, but really it's hard to imagine such relations between two nationalities. (never been to Europe so.)
I thought what was attractive to the poem was the sincere seeking of peace, and I would think that might resonate with most people! Why I found particularly distasteful about it was the notion that an attack by Israel would lead to the 'wiping out of the Iranian people', which I would like to think is a bit silly. Never been there, but I'm sure Israel has quite amount of decency (if there was any to have) in military actions.