• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

On "Critical Biblical Scholarship"

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Yes, G-d only uses Bic pens. No quills with ink !!


So, the P source is different stylistically and in content from the rest of the first 5 books? Is there any other evidence that it was not written by G-d?

What strong evidence supports this conclusion about the P source? A lot of folk name drop Friedman, but never support the conclusions made.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I thought there might be some interest in this article that appeared in the Jewish Chronicle, which is published in London. It was written by Marc Zvi Brettler.

(If you have difficulty identifying who is Professor Brettler or who were Rabbis Hertz and Jacobs, let me know.)

When first published, many considered the Hertz Pentateuch to be scandalous, since it cited many non-Jewish biblical scholars.

These objections are now long forgotten, and Hertz is instead remembered for its traditionalism, for strenuously defending Maimonides's eighth principle of faith of Torah min hashamyim-literally "Torah from heaven"-that the exact Torah text that we now possess was revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

The Jacobs's Affair, which began to unfold almost sixty years ago, is usually understood to centre around this issue. In We Have Reason to Believe, a powerful defense of traditional Judaism, Jacobs describes revelation as including human participation, a theological position he calls "liberal supernaturalism." For Chief Rabbi Brodie, such views justified blocking Jacobs's appointment as principal of Jews' College and then banning him from returning as minister at the New West End Synagogue. Brodie defended his position in a piece printed in this newspaper, insisting: "An attitude to the Torah such as this which denies its Divine source and unity (Torah min Hashamayim) is directly opposed to orthodox teaching, and no person holding such views can expect to obtain approval of the orthodox Ecclesiastical authority."

As an observant Jew (I prefer that term to Orthodox), I wonder what would have happened if Jacobs were alive now. How would the larger Orthodox community, which then jumped on the anti-Jacobs bandwagon, react?

One way of gauging this is by looking at TheTorah.com. The project's idea originated with David Steinberg, a haredi Orthodox rabbi; another Orthodox rabbi, Zev Farber joined soon thereafter-I am a co-founder and an active member of an Orthodox shul. TheTorah.com was originally conceived of as a site by traditional Jews for traditional Jews, but now has much broader readers and contributors, including the Regius Professors of Hebrew at Oxford and Cambridge. It strives to show how historical-critical (or better, contextual) study of the Bible could fit well within Orthodoxy, and thus has become an important flashpoint in discussions of the boundaries of Orthodoxy, in some ways occupying a similar place to that Jacobs's book had in the 1960s.

The site has been censured. Soon after it went live, the Orthodox Rabbinical Council of America (R.C.A.) proclaimed:

In recent days there has been much discussion regarding the belief in Torah Min HaShamayim. ...t is necessary ... to assert the centrality of this bedrock principle in broad terms...
Denunciations for its "heretical" essays continue; a recent email said: "I have a peculiar feeling that it [TheTorah.com] is full of Apikorsus and heresy.... Would you please unsubscribe me from this filth." Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer, an R.C.A. member, polemicised against the site on cross-currents.com in a post titled "The Torah.com: It is Most Certainly Not 'Orthodox Jews Challenging Commonly Held Beliefs About the Torah.'" It engendered 75 responses, indicating that Torah Min Hashamyim is being widely discussed in the Orthodox community.

The energy that various people are expending to deny the validity of the openminded approaches taken in TheTorah.com, alongside the fact that most of the site's funders are members of the Orthodox community, and it reaches over 100,000 users each month, reveals the inroads it is making among traditional, including Orthodox, Jews.

In an essay on TheTorah.com website, the sociologist Chaim Waxman examined why critical approaches to the Bible have penetrated into the Orthodox community, noting the influence of Israeli rabbis Mordechai Breuer and Yoel Bin-Nun, as well as certain developments in American Orthodoxy, including the impact of the Web, and of new views of pluralism. The scholar of Orthodox Judaism Marc Shapiro begins his discussion of this phenomenon with the Jacobs's affair, and concludes: "I believe that as far as some in their community are concerned, the answer [to the question of whether modern Orthodoxy is moving toward accepting biblical criticism] is yes." The Bar-Ilan professor Adam S. Ferziger sees the change emanating from the Israeli religious Zionist circles, but acknowledges that these changes are becoming more globalised. These studies show that Orthodoxy is no longer only polemicising against academic biblical studies, but trying to integrate its teachings.

The support for TheTorah.com by many Orthodox leaders was brought home to me, quite movingly, when they, among others, were asked to comment on the seventh anniversary of the site. For example, Dr. Rabbi Nathan Lopes Cardozo "congratulate[d] TheTorah.com for its ongoing efforts to face the text with courage and honesty." Professor Tova Ganzel observed: "Some worry that critical scholarship of the Torah will uproot the basis of their faith. I worry that clinging uncritically to one's faith will compromise his or her integrity and faith." Professor Tamar Ross offered a passionate plea: "awareness and acknowledgement of the accomplishments of critical biblical scholarship are crucial for the development of a mature and sober theology relevant for our times." Had such scholars given voice to similar opinions sixty years ago, the history of Orthodox Jewry might have been different.

Hertz's heresies from over three-quarters of a century ago became today's Orthodoxy, and the same is happening in some circles for the "heretical" beliefs of Louis Jacobs, which are becoming well-accepted by a significant number of Orthodox Jews today.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The the Biblical Scholarship sponsored by TheTorah.com that was presented in the OP is insulting to religious people. See below:

" It also encourages those attached to such faith to grope for more adequate formulations of the ultimate meaning of their continued attachment to these doctrines. "

The person speaking about this has obvious contempt for religious people who "grope" for "continued attachment" to "doctrines".

If the bias from the above quote is not shared by all contributors and editors of TheTorah.com, then the person who chose to highlight this person's opinion from TheTorah.com is doing them an extreme disservice.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
noting the influence of Israeli rabbis Mordechai Breuer and Yoel Bin-Nun
I think it's important to note, just so that there aren't any misunderstandings, that both Rabbi Breuer and Rabbi Bin-Nun (whose son, BTW, taught me 11th grade Tanach) believe in Torah Min Hashamayim and don't view what they teach as Biblical Criticism.
As Rabbi Bin-Nun wrote:

כולנו מאמינים בתורה מן השמים, שאינה יצירה אנושית ואינה פרי רוחם של דורות רבים, אלא ניתנה מאת ה' למשה רבנו, באופן שהתפרש ע"י חז"ל. צר לי על כך, שאני נאלץ לכתוב משפט כזה, כאילו יש ח"ו אפשרות אחרת.

. כולנו חושבים שאין קשר הכרחי בין העובדות (הבעיות, הכפילויות והסתירות), לבין ההנחות והמסקנות של ביקורת המקרא. לפיכך, איננו מלמדים ביקורת המקרא בשום פנים – לא הרב ברויאר ותלמידיו, לא אני ותלמידי, ולא אחרים. אנו מלמדים תנ"ך דרך התמודדות פרשנית-רעיונית עם העובדות, ולא דרך המסקנות של המחקר הביקורתי. מי שאומר עלינו שאנו מלמדים ביקורת המקרא – אינו אלא טועה, ויש בכך משום הוצאת שם רע, על כל המשתמע מכך.
Translation:
We all believe in Torah from Shamayim, that it is not a man-made construct and not the result of the ideologies of many generations, but was given by Hashem to Moshe Rabbeinu in a manner that was explained by our sages. I'm saddened by the fact that I must write this, as though there is, chas v'chalilah, some other option.

We all hold that there is not necessarily any correlation between the facts (problems, duplicates and contradictions) and the assumptions and conclusions of the Biblical Criticism. Not Rabbi Breuer and his students, not I and my students, and not anyone else. We teach Tanach by dealing with the facts through a conceptual-exegetical mechanism and not per the conclusions of the Critical research. Whosoever says about us that we teach Biblical Criticism is mistaken, and is therefore a spreader of a bad name, with all that comes with that.

05: אחת דיבר א-להים, שתים זו שמעתי! | vbm haretzion
 
Last edited:

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
@Harel13 -

Here is a link to a book available in PDF format online... and without cost... that was published about 8 years ago. the title is Jewish Concepts of Scripture. It is a series of essays by scholars from the across the denominational spectrum. I thought you might be especially interested in the essay on Rabbi Breuer which was written by Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva University.

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/www.difa3iat.com_-6.pdf

Others may want to take a look as well.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
and without cost
I do like free stuff...:D
@Harel13 -

Here is a link to a book available in PDF format online... and without cost... that was published about 8 years ago. the title is Jewish Concepts of Scripture. It is a series of essays by scholars from the across the denominational spectrum. I thought you might be especially interested in the essay on Rabbi Breuer which was written by Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva University.

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/www.difa3iat.com_-6.pdf

Others may want to take a look as well.
I'll check it out, thanks!
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
The the Biblical Scholarship sponsored by TheTorah.com that was presented in the OP is insulting to religious people. See below:

" It also encourages those attached to such faith to grope for more adequate formulations of the ultimate meaning of their continued attachment to these doctrines. "

The person speaking about this has obvious contempt for religious people who "grope" for "continued attachment" to "doctrines".
Prof. Tamar Ross is an Orthodox Jew.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Prof. Tamar Ross is an Orthodox Jew.
Encouraging, but, do you disagree with my assessment of the language I quoted that was presented in the OP?

( It's OK to be blunt if there's criticism , if you want. )
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
@Harel13 -

Here is a link to a book available in PDF format online... and without cost... that was published about 8 years ago. the title is Jewish Concepts of Scripture. It is a series of essays by scholars from the across the denominational spectrum. I thought you might be especially interested in the essay on Rabbi Breuer which was written by Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva University.

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/www.difa3iat.com_-6.pdf

Others may want to take a look as well.
@Harel13 -

Here is a link to a book available in PDF format online... and without cost... that was published about 8 years ago. the title is Jewish Concepts of Scripture. It is a series of essays by scholars from the across the denominational spectrum. I thought you might be especially interested in the essay on Rabbi Breuer which was written by Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva University.

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/www.difa3iat.com_-6.pdf

Others may want to take a look as well.

What do you like about this chapter, RabbiO?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought you might be especially interested in the essay on Rabbi Breuer which was written by Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva University.
Hi @RabbiO, I very much enjoyed the article. I printed it before Shabbat and read it during Shabbat. Yes, it was great, thanks. :)
 
Top