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OMG! I've had an idea! Grab Your Smelling Salts, and read my idea about Faiths One, Two, and Three!

I found reading Sunstone's passionate Essay on the different kinds of faith...

  • ...to be life changing. I shall never again doubt the man's brilliance! Really! Never again!

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • ...to be the culmanation of my intellectual career.

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • ...to be as personally rewarding as the time I got drunk and upchucked on my prom date.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...an uphill, hard-fought battle with vertigo and nausea.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...an illuminating journey into the otherwise dark jungle of his mind.

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • ...a spot-on critique of Johann Georg Hamman's ideas about faith. Or so Sunstone tells me it is.

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • ...has driven me to drink. Or worse. Probably worse.

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • ...is something I'll never forgive him for. Never!

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • ...explained to me why he's been twice divorced.

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • ...is something I will now make every effort to forget ever happened to me.

    Votes: 1 7.1%

  • Total voters
    14

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
After consideration, I believe I see your point, but I'm not sure how relevant it is in this particular case since I believe the over-riding question isn't whether the evidence is objectively compelling, but rather whether the person of faith finds it compelling.
Ah well, objectively compelling is not what I meant, I think in this context you can only talk about evidence being subjectively compelling. For example, a person with a scientific background is more likely to rubbish the evidence if it is in the form of a holy book, someone with little understanding of science but a religious background is more likely to go the other way.

I'd say it is more easy for a scientific mind, or a critical thinker, to appraise scientific ideas and religious ideas, but a person with little or no scientific education will always struggle to appraise scientific ideas. Science is hard, certainly at the advanced level, and it doesn't appeal to everyone. Not sure what we can do to fix that other than promote science more, and make it more appealing to young minds. At least then they are making a more informed choice about their faith of choice! ;)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
While you're on such a introspective roll, @Sunstone, what is the difference between faith and belief, in your opinion?

Honestly, I don't think my thoughts on that matter are relevant here, and that offering them in this context would most likely serve merely to distract people from focusing on the terms as used in the OP. In the OP I have used the terms as I recall having heard them used in the context of arguments that "everything one believes is ultimately based on faith". I myself would not use the terms "faith" and "belief" in quite the same way but -- again -- I think how I would use those terms is irrelevant here. However, because of your question, I'm now considering starting a separate thread -- at least as insufferable as this one -- on what I believe to be the distinction between faith and belief. Oh, no doubt your heart leaps with joy to hear of it!
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Honestly, I don't think my thoughts on that matter are relevant here, and that offering them in this context would most likely serve merely to distract people from focusing on the terms as used in the OP. In the OP I have used the terms as I recall having heard them used in the context of arguments that "everything one believes is ultimately based on faith". I myself would not use the terms "faith" and "belief" in quite the same way but -- again -- I think how I would use those terms is irrelevant here. However, because of your question, I'm now considering starting a separate thread -- at least as insufferable as this one -- on what I believe to be the distinction between faith and belief. Oh, no doubt your heart leaps with joy to hear of it!
Spoiler alert. Faith is just a specific type of belief. Mind you, "Faith" is a tricky word.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I like to see your thoughts, I can't remember the last time I saw you write something so long.

Mostly I agree
Faith 1 for me would be delusion.
Faith 2 and 3 I like yet I am unclear of what having compelling evidence adds or subtracts from faith. Looking above me @BSM1 reply pehaps he nailed it for me.

Faith 1 is delusion
Faith 2 is belief
Faith 3 is actual Faith

Just my thought inspired by you and BSM1
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now and then, I hear someone argue that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", and that, consequently, there is no truly fundamental difference between, say, the beliefs of an evolutionary scientist about the diversity of species, and the beliefs of a young-earth creationist about the diversity of species.

For instance, just as a creationist has faith that his or her deity created within six days the diversity we see in life forms today, an evolutionary scientist has faith that that diversity is the product of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. Why are their beliefs fundamentally equivalent? Because both rest on faith, it is argued. The creationist's beliefs rest on faith in the existence of a creator deity, etc, and the evolutionary scientist's beliefs rest on faith in the constancy of natural laws, etc. Since neither faith can be proven with absolute certainty, the two sets of beliefs are epistemologically the same.

There are variations on that argument. Subtle twists and turns, but that's about the gist of it, in my opinion. I'd love to hear any corrections of my summary of the argument.

Now then, I would like to propose that the notion, "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", which appears to be the core claim here, is indefensible when furthered by the claim, "Therefore there is no truly fundamental difference between one belief and another." It is indefensible because it rests on a fallacy of logic.

The fallacy in question is one of equivocation. In brief, the argument equivocates between up to three different meanings of the word "faith", depending on what version it comes in. Which is the same as saying it talks about up to three different things, while calling them all the same thing.

Here are the three different meanings of "faith":

Faith One: A belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary of that belief. If I know my spouse has cheated on me with six other people, and yet I still have faith he or she will not cheat on me again, then all else being equal, my faith can be defined as a belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary. This is sometimes called a species of "fideism".

Faith Two. A belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con to that belief. If I have faith that an undetectable leprechaun is farting undetectable rainbows just beneath my windowsill, my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con. Of course, one can argue that the compelling evidence here is a complete lack of evidence. i.e. "if the leprechaun existed, there would be some compelling evidence of its existence". And while that may or may not be a strong argument to most people, it is also an irrelevant point in this context, since it does nothing to change the fact that it might not be a compelling argument to some other people. It seems to me at least some theists use faith in this sense of the word.

Faith Three. A belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. If I believe, based on solid experience, that my car will start on this cold winter morning, then my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. That is, I cannot be absolutely certain that my car will start, so it can be said of me that my expectation it will start amounts to a kind of faith it will. But my faith here is distinct from faith one, because I have no compelling evidence to contradict it, and it is distinct from faith two, because I have compelling evidence to support it. This would seem to me to be the kind of "faith" that one might ascribe to, say, and evolutionary scientist.

Now let us apply what has just been said to the notion that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith, and consequently, there is no fundamental (i.e. epistemic) difference between one belief and another".

If that were true, there would be no fundamental difference between faiths one, two, and three. And yet we have seen that there are fundamental differences between the three faiths in terms of how each treats empirical evidence. Put differently, a belief arrived at via faith one is based on a different epistemology from a belief arrived at via faith two or faith three. To argue otherwise is to argue that belief contrary to evidence, belief in the absence of evidence, and believe in congruence with evidence are all one and the same thing. But tut tut! I say, tut tut! That's just not so!

CONFESSION TIME: I whipped all this out on the spur of a moment in order to ward off an inner explosion of boredom, and I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet to give it all a good, searching scrutiny. Instead, I thought it would be much more fun for everyone if I just posted it and then let y'all critique it in the hopes that at least some of your critiques might be downright insightful and thrilling. So please have at it! Enjoy! I look forward to your comments, insights, poignant misunderstandings, clever criticisms, and deeply meaningful, angst-ridden rants -- except yours, @Debater Slayer . I don't look forward to yours. :D
I suspect that only people of faith ever say that people with evidence are the same as people without it.
I think there never was anyone with real evidence who ever said that evidence and belief are the same things.

I have this problem with someone who is very dear to me and it is FRUSTRATING!
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I suspect that only people of faith ever say that people with evidence are the same as people without it.
I think there never was anyone with real evidence who ever said that evidence and belief are the same things.

I have this problem with someone who is very dear to me and it is FRUSTRATING!

Since reading through and thinking about it the difference between faith and scientific logic is that faith allows circumstantial evidence and ignores complicated evidence.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Honestly, I don't think my thoughts on that matter are relevant here, and that offering them in this context would most likely serve merely to distract people from focusing on the terms as used in the OP. In the OP I have used the terms as I recall having heard them used in the context of arguments that "everything one believes is ultimately based on faith". I myself would not use the terms "faith" and "belief" in quite the same way but -- again -- I think how I would use those terms is irrelevant here. However, because of your question, I'm now considering starting a separate thread -- at least as insufferable as this one -- on what I believe to be the distinction between faith and belief. Oh, no doubt your heart leaps with joy to hear of it!

Like a gazelle in the morning dew...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Now and then, I hear someone argue that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", and that, consequently, there is no truly fundamental difference between, say, the beliefs of an evolutionary scientist about the diversity of species, and the beliefs of a young-earth creationist about the diversity of species.

For instance, just as a creationist has faith that his or her deity created within six days the diversity we see in life forms today, an evolutionary scientist has faith that that diversity is the product of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. Why are their beliefs fundamentally equivalent? Because both rest on faith, it is argued. The creationist's beliefs rest on faith in the existence of a creator deity, etc, and the evolutionary scientist's beliefs rest on faith in the constancy of natural laws, etc. Since neither faith can be proven with absolute certainty, the two sets of beliefs are epistemologically the same.

There are variations on that argument. Subtle twists and turns, but that's about the gist of it, in my opinion. I'd love to hear any corrections of my summary of the argument.

Now then, I would like to propose that the notion, "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", which appears to be the core claim here, is indefensible when furthered by the claim, "Therefore there is no truly fundamental difference between one belief and another." It is indefensible because it rests on a fallacy of logic.

The fallacy in question is one of equivocation. In brief, the argument equivocates between up to three different meanings of the word "faith", depending on what version it comes in. Which is the same as saying it talks about up to three different things, while calling them all the same thing.

Here are the three different meanings of "faith":

Faith One: A belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary of that belief. If I know my spouse has cheated on me with six other people, and yet I still have faith he or she will not cheat on me again, then all else being equal, my faith can be defined as a belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary. This is sometimes called a species of "fideism".

Faith Two. A belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con to that belief. If I have faith that an undetectable leprechaun is farting undetectable rainbows just beneath my windowsill, my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con. Of course, one can argue that the compelling evidence here is a complete lack of evidence. i.e. "if the leprechaun existed, there would be some compelling evidence of its existence". And while that may or may not be a strong argument to most people, it is also an irrelevant point in this context, since it does nothing to change the fact that it might not be a compelling argument to some other people. It seems to me at least some theists use faith in this sense of the word.

Faith Three. A belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. If I believe, based on solid experience, that my car will start on this cold winter morning, then my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. That is, I cannot be absolutely certain that my car will start, so it can be said of me that my expectation it will start amounts to a kind of faith it will. But my faith here is distinct from faith one, because I have no compelling evidence to contradict it, and it is distinct from faith two, because I have compelling evidence to support it. This would seem to me to be the kind of "faith" that one might ascribe to, say, and evolutionary scientist.

Now let us apply what has just been said to the notion that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith, and consequently, there is no fundamental (i.e. epistemic) difference between one belief and another".

If that were true, there would be no fundamental difference between faiths one, two, and three. And yet we have seen that there are fundamental differences between the three faiths in terms of how each treats empirical evidence. Put differently, a belief arrived at via faith one is based on a different epistemology from a belief arrived at via faith two or faith three. To argue otherwise is to argue that belief contrary to evidence, belief in the absence of evidence, and believe in congruence with evidence are all one and the same thing. But tut tut! I say, tut tut! That's just not so!

CONFESSION TIME: I whipped all this out on the spur of a moment in order to ward off an inner explosion of boredom, and I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet to give it all a good, searching scrutiny. Instead, I thought it would be much more fun for everyone if I just posted it and then let y'all critique it in the hopes that at least some of your critiques might be downright insightful and thrilling. So please have at it! Enjoy! I look forward to your comments, insights, poignant misunderstandings, clever criticisms, and deeply meaningful, angst-ridden rants -- except yours, @Debater Slayer . I don't look forward to yours. :D

Biblical faith is trust based on reasonable evidence.

Skeptics have reams of evidence proving their assertions. Christians who love the Bible have reams of evidence proving their assertions. We will all see clearly on that day, yet secularism is destroying families, life via abortion, government via corruption and minds via ignorance.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I don't think you understood what I said, but I do you believe you have faith you understood. :D
I think, actually, that you overuse the word faith -- and I also think that there is a very real and important difference between what I would label "faith" and what I would label "confidence."

That difference, between faith and confidence, is evidential versus moral. Confidence is the degree of certainty that one has in a proposition based on evidence and experience. Change the evidence, alter the experience, and the level of confidence will change accordingly.

Faith, for whatever reason, dispenses with this need for evidence and/or experience, and remains as strong even in spite of evidence to the contrary. One may, for example, have faith that one's wife has never fooled around with the next door red-headed neighbour, but it might be at least slightly tested when your next kid pops out with a head of ginger-coloured hair.

Let me provide an example from a movie, "God on Trial" about a group of inmates in Auschwitz during WWII. Faced with their inevitable extermination, the Jews in the camp put their all-powerful God on trial to try to understand how an all-powerful deity could allow the Holocaust to happen. Interestingly, they find God Guilty -- not of not being God, they retain their belief (their "faith," if you will) in that, but of breaching the Covenant -- God is still God, but He has made a new covenant, with somebody else.

Now, from my, non-religious, point of view, the evidence that they are confronted with would have convinced of the much more likely proposition that my original belief in an omnipotent God was misplaced. That I was wrong. That's because I am essentially an evidence-based believer. Having "faith" leads to needing to dream up other, more convoluted explanations for why the moral object of faith has defaulted, while still remaining the moral object of faith.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Biblical faith is trust based on reasonable evidence.

Skeptics have reams of evidence proving their assertions. Christians who love the Bible have reams of evidence proving their assertions.
Not proving. Suggesting.

It really takes no faith to view hard evidence. The thread is about calling conclusions drawn from physical evidence, faith. It isn't faith. It is the brain working.

The GOD given brain working.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Illuminating. Although perhaps some things are better left unseen. :eek:

Words are such pernicious things at times! I think there is a lot of truth in what you wrote, we all believe different things for different reasons, and but we would all claim there is evidence for what we believe (there are even people who claim to have seen leprechauns, though I've never heard of one farting rainbows!). The sticking point is what we regard as "good" or "compelling" evidence.

I freely admit to be fairly dismissive about certain "genres" of evidence; holy books are one and unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence is another. The scientific method seems to me the most reliable way of discovering evidence without the cultural filters and biases we are all subject to; it has served our species well over time. My life experience, my education, my intellect push me that way, I don't have much choice. I feel I'd have to take my intellect behind the barn and shoot it dead to go back to religious/superstitious belief. However, I don't take the word of science to be true regardless, a lot of it is pretty much our best guess based on what evidence there is. I think there is value in saying "I don't know" and being content with that; one day we might know.
Well said, and worth repeating.

After consideration, I believe I see your point, but I'm not sure how relevant it is in this particular case since I believe the over-riding question isn't whether the evidence is objectively compelling, but rather whether the person of faith finds it compelling.
agreed and disagreed. This I think is where it falls apart as simply nitpicking definitions of words. Belief in the face of compelling evidence against that thing, is faith. Belief with no evidence for or against, is also faith IMHO.
But to paraphrase @savagewind......belief drawn from physical evidence and replicated studies is not faith, but rather one's brain actually working.

Biblical faith is trust based on reasonable evidence.

Skeptics have reams of evidence proving their assertions. Christians who love the Bible have reams of evidence proving their assertions. We will all see clearly on that day, yet secularism is destroying families, life via abortion, government via corruption and minds via ignorance.
That's so ironic you should get your liver checked for hemochromatosis.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Not proving. Suggesting.

It really takes no faith to view hard evidence. The thread is about calling conclusions drawn from physical evidence, faith. It isn't faith. It is the brain working.

The GOD given brain working.

We can say, if this helps, God shows you how long the trust leap is, and then you leap, as opposed to a blind leap. The leap is, as you wrote, MUCH smaller than skeptics seem to think.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Illuminating. Although perhaps some things are better left unseen. :eek:

Well said, and worth repeating.

agreed and disagreed. This I think is where it falls apart as simply nitpicking definitions of words. Belief in the face of compelling evidence against that thing, is faith. Belief with no evidence for or against, is also faith IMHO.
But to paraphrase @savagewind......belief drawn from physical evidence and replicated studies is not faith, but rather one's brain actually working.

That's so ironic you should get your liver checked for hemochromatosis.

Mocking (as usual) not only doesn't help, but confirms what the Bible said about skeptics, so thanks for proving the Bible true!

The fact is there is a biblical definition of faith (trust in Jesus) that is clear in Hebrews 11:1-5
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Brain in a vat thing.

This is a worthwhile point in any discussion about faith. You could ultimately argue that all belief, no matter how apparently well founded/obvious, is an expression of faith given that we can't be certain what reality itself may or may not be (with the possible exception that "I am a thinking thing").

That said, I do agree with the general spirit of @Sunstone's post. To use myself as an example: I have faith that a reality exists independent of my perception of it, I have faith that my dog will want to go on a walk, I also have faith that there is something after death. The first example is faith in the broad, philosophical sense and takes into account things that I accept but can't know. The second is faith based on strong evidence and past experience. The third is the kind of "gut-feeling" faith that I can't help but believe and isn't based on evidence*.

I could certainly argue that all of those points are simply a matter of faith. However, I'd be arguing a pure technicality in a pedantic and possibly even dishonest manner.

*I know about NDEs and so on but don't consider them convincing evidence. To me, what comes after death (if anything) is still the great unknown... I just believe in something despite myself.
 
Now and then, I hear someone argue that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", and that, consequently, there is no truly fundamental difference between, say, the beliefs of an evolutionary scientist about the diversity of species, and the beliefs of a young-earth creationist about the diversity of species.

For instance, just as a creationist has faith that his or her deity created within six days the diversity we see in life forms today, an evolutionary scientist has faith that that diversity is the product of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. Why are their beliefs fundamentally equivalent? Because both rest on faith, it is argued. The creationist's beliefs rest on faith in the existence of a creator deity, etc, and the evolutionary scientist's beliefs rest on faith in the constancy of natural laws, etc. Since neither faith can be proven with absolute certainty, the two sets of beliefs are epistemologically the same.

There are variations on that argument. Subtle twists and turns, but that's about the gist of it, in my opinion. I'd love to hear any corrections of my summary of the argument.

Now then, I would like to propose that the notion, "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", which appears to be the core claim here, is indefensible when furthered by the claim, "Therefore there is no truly fundamental difference between one belief and another." It is indefensible because it rests on a fallacy of logic.

The fallacy in question is one of equivocation. In brief, the argument equivocates between up to three different meanings of the word "faith", depending on what version it comes in. Which is the same as saying it talks about up to three different things, while calling them all the same thing.

Here are the three different meanings of "faith":

Faith One: A belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary of that belief. If I know my spouse has cheated on me with six other people, and yet I still have faith he or she will not cheat on me again, then all else being equal, my faith can be defined as a belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary. This is sometimes called a species of "fideism".

Faith Two. A belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con to that belief. If I have faith that an undetectable leprechaun is farting undetectable rainbows just beneath my windowsill, my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con. Of course, one can argue that the compelling evidence here is a complete lack of evidence. i.e. "if the leprechaun existed, there would be some compelling evidence of its existence". And while that may or may not be a strong argument to most people, it is also an irrelevant point in this context, since it does nothing to change the fact that it might not be a compelling argument to some other people. It seems to me at least some theists use faith in this sense of the word.

Faith Three. A belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. If I believe, based on solid experience, that my car will start on this cold winter morning, then my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. That is, I cannot be absolutely certain that my car will start, so it can be said of me that my expectation it will start amounts to a kind of faith it will. But my faith here is distinct from faith one, because I have no compelling evidence to contradict it, and it is distinct from faith two, because I have compelling evidence to support it. This would seem to me to be the kind of "faith" that one might ascribe to, say, and evolutionary scientist.

Now let us apply what has just been said to the notion that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith, and consequently, there is no fundamental (i.e. epistemic) difference between one belief and another".

If that were true, there would be no fundamental difference between faiths one, two, and three. And yet we have seen that there are fundamental differences between the three faiths in terms of how each treats empirical evidence. Put differently, a belief arrived at via faith one is based on a different epistemology from a belief arrived at via faith two or faith three. To argue otherwise is to argue that belief contrary to evidence, belief in the absence of evidence, and believe in congruence with evidence are all one and the same thing. But tut tut! I say, tut tut! That's just not so!

CONFESSION TIME: I whipped all this out on the spur of a moment in order to ward off an inner explosion of boredom, and I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet to give it all a good, searching scrutiny. Instead, I thought it would be much more fun for everyone if I just posted it and then let y'all critique it in the hopes that at least some of your critiques might be downright insightful and thrilling. So please have at it! Enjoy! I look forward to your comments, insights, poignant misunderstandings, clever criticisms, and deeply meaningful, angst-ridden rants -- except yours, @Debater Slayer . I don't look forward to yours. :D
OLD

Apologists have been trying to weasel in the old equivocation fallacy since the beginning of time.

It generally reads something like..you have faith the sun will rise, which justify faith belief, therefore my faith belief in jeebus is equally as justified. It works on people that aren't very smart I guess...
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Now and then, I hear someone argue that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", and that, consequently, there is no truly fundamental difference between, say, the beliefs of an evolutionary scientist about the diversity of species, and the beliefs of a young-earth creationist about the diversity of species.

For instance, just as a creationist has faith that his or her deity created within six days the diversity we see in life forms today, an evolutionary scientist has faith that that diversity is the product of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. Why are their beliefs fundamentally equivalent? Because both rest on faith, it is argued. The creationist's beliefs rest on faith in the existence of a creator deity, etc, and the evolutionary scientist's beliefs rest on faith in the constancy of natural laws, etc. Since neither faith can be proven with absolute certainty, the two sets of beliefs are epistemologically the same.

There are variations on that argument. Subtle twists and turns, but that's about the gist of it, in my opinion. I'd love to hear any corrections of my summary of the argument.

Now then, I would like to propose that the notion, "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", which appears to be the core claim here, is indefensible when furthered by the claim, "Therefore there is no truly fundamental difference between one belief and another." It is indefensible because it rests on a fallacy of logic.

The fallacy in question is one of equivocation. In brief, the argument equivocates between up to three different meanings of the word "faith", depending on what version it comes in. Which is the same as saying it talks about up to three different things, while calling them all the same thing.

Here are the three different meanings of "faith":

Faith One: A belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary of that belief. If I know my spouse has cheated on me with six other people, and yet I still have faith he or she will not cheat on me again, then all else being equal, my faith can be defined as a belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary. This is sometimes called a species of "fideism".

Faith Two. A belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con to that belief. If I have faith that an undetectable leprechaun is farting undetectable rainbows just beneath my windowsill, my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con. Of course, one can argue that the compelling evidence here is a complete lack of evidence. i.e. "if the leprechaun existed, there would be some compelling evidence of its existence". And while that may or may not be a strong argument to most people, it is also an irrelevant point in this context, since it does nothing to change the fact that it might not be a compelling argument to some other people. It seems to me at least some theists use faith in this sense of the word.

Faith Three. A belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. If I believe, based on solid experience, that my car will start on this cold winter morning, then my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. That is, I cannot be absolutely certain that my car will start, so it can be said of me that my expectation it will start amounts to a kind of faith it will. But my faith here is distinct from faith one, because I have no compelling evidence to contradict it, and it is distinct from faith two, because I have compelling evidence to support it. This would seem to me to be the kind of "faith" that one might ascribe to, say, and evolutionary scientist.

Now let us apply what has just been said to the notion that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith, and consequently, there is no fundamental (i.e. epistemic) difference between one belief and another".

If that were true, there would be no fundamental difference between faiths one, two, and three. And yet we have seen that there are fundamental differences between the three faiths in terms of how each treats empirical evidence. Put differently, a belief arrived at via faith one is based on a different epistemology from a belief arrived at via faith two or faith three. To argue otherwise is to argue that belief contrary to evidence, belief in the absence of evidence, and believe in congruence with evidence are all one and the same thing. But tut tut! I say, tut tut! That's just not so!

CONFESSION TIME: I whipped all this out on the spur of a moment in order to ward off an inner explosion of boredom, and I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet to give it all a good, searching scrutiny. Instead, I thought it would be much more fun for everyone if I just posted it and then let y'all critique it in the hopes that at least some of your critiques might be downright insightful and thrilling. So please have at it! Enjoy! I look forward to your comments, insights, poignant misunderstandings, clever criticisms, and deeply meaningful, angst-ridden rants -- except yours, @Debater Slayer . I don't look forward to yours. :D

The main interesting thing behind this is that in my experience it seems most everyone believes they are part of Faith 3 in your example, and that everyone who disagrees with them is either in Faith 1 or Faith 2 (and obviously the people who disagree more are those in Faith 1).
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Now and then, I hear someone argue that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", and that, consequently, there is no truly fundamental difference between, say, the beliefs of an evolutionary scientist about the diversity of species, and the beliefs of a young-earth creationist about the diversity of species.

For instance, just as a creationist has faith that his or her deity created within six days the diversity we see in life forms today, an evolutionary scientist has faith that that diversity is the product of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. Why are their beliefs fundamentally equivalent? Because both rest on faith, it is argued. The creationist's beliefs rest on faith in the existence of a creator deity, etc, and the evolutionary scientist's beliefs rest on faith in the constancy of natural laws, etc. Since neither faith can be proven with absolute certainty, the two sets of beliefs are epistemologically the same.

There are variations on that argument. Subtle twists and turns, but that's about the gist of it, in my opinion. I'd love to hear any corrections of my summary of the argument.

Now then, I would like to propose that the notion, "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith", which appears to be the core claim here, is indefensible when furthered by the claim, "Therefore there is no truly fundamental difference between one belief and another." It is indefensible because it rests on a fallacy of logic.

The fallacy in question is one of equivocation. In brief, the argument equivocates between up to three different meanings of the word "faith", depending on what version it comes in. Which is the same as saying it talks about up to three different things, while calling them all the same thing.

Here are the three different meanings of "faith":

Faith One: A belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary of that belief. If I know my spouse has cheated on me with six other people, and yet I still have faith he or she will not cheat on me again, then all else being equal, my faith can be defined as a belief in something despite compelling evidence to the contrary. This is sometimes called a species of "fideism".

Faith Two. A belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con to that belief. If I have faith that an undetectable leprechaun is farting undetectable rainbows just beneath my windowsill, my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the absence of any compelling evidence pro or con. Of course, one can argue that the compelling evidence here is a complete lack of evidence. i.e. "if the leprechaun existed, there would be some compelling evidence of its existence". And while that may or may not be a strong argument to most people, it is also an irrelevant point in this context, since it does nothing to change the fact that it might not be a compelling argument to some other people. It seems to me at least some theists use faith in this sense of the word.

Faith Three. A belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. If I believe, based on solid experience, that my car will start on this cold winter morning, then my faith can be defined as a belief in something in the presence of compelling evidence for that belief. That is, I cannot be absolutely certain that my car will start, so it can be said of me that my expectation it will start amounts to a kind of faith it will. But my faith here is distinct from faith one, because I have no compelling evidence to contradict it, and it is distinct from faith two, because I have compelling evidence to support it. This would seem to me to be the kind of "faith" that one might ascribe to, say, and evolutionary scientist.

Now let us apply what has just been said to the notion that "everything people believe is ultimately based on faith, and consequently, there is no fundamental (i.e. epistemic) difference between one belief and another".

If that were true, there would be no fundamental difference between faiths one, two, and three. And yet we have seen that there are fundamental differences between the three faiths in terms of how each treats empirical evidence. Put differently, a belief arrived at via faith one is based on a different epistemology from a belief arrived at via faith two or faith three. To argue otherwise is to argue that belief contrary to evidence, belief in the absence of evidence, and believe in congruence with evidence are all one and the same thing. But tut tut! I say, tut tut! That's just not so!

CONFESSION TIME: I whipped all this out on the spur of a moment in order to ward off an inner explosion of boredom, and I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet to give it all a good, searching scrutiny. Instead, I thought it would be much more fun for everyone if I just posted it and then let y'all critique it in the hopes that at least some of your critiques might be downright insightful and thrilling. So please have at it! Enjoy! I look forward to your comments, insights, poignant misunderstandings, clever criticisms, and deeply meaningful, angst-ridden rants -- except yours, @Debater Slayer . I don't look forward to yours. :D

Looks like you took the long way around to say that faith may be supported by differing degrees of evidence or none--the latter being blind faith, and 100% of evidential support making that faith proven, which would negate the need to call it faith in the first place.
 
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