omega2xx, probe away!

[lovesong]

@omega2xx, I made the thread! Go ahead and ask whatever you want.

I'll kinda open this up too, so anyone that also has omega's curiosities can chime in, I don't mind. But I do have class, so it'll be a couple of hours before I can respond.

 

[Spiderman]

Is that you in the avatar?

Also, do you belong to any groups that practice necromancy? Are you developing a sensitivity to being able to identify what it is that the dead are telling you?

 

[omega2xx]

@omega2xx, I made the thread! Go ahead and ask whatever you want.

I'll kinda open this up too, so anyone that also has omega's curiosities can chime in, I don't mind. But I do have class, so it'll be a couple of hours before I can respond.

First I would like to know if you accept there is a spiritual life that is available to us.

Second, what is the most attractive teaching of the path you are following?

No hurry, studying come first.

 

[allfoak]

First I would like to know if you accept there is a spiritual life that is available to us.

Second, what is the most attractive teaching of the path you are following?

No hurry, studying come first.

This should be interesting.
I want a front row seat for his one.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

This should be interesting.
I want a front row seat for his one.

Hey, you're frightening away the spooks!

 

[Katzpur]

@omega2xx, I made the thread! Go ahead and ask whatever you want.

I'll kinda open this up too, so anyone that also has omega's curiosities can chime in, I don't mind. But I do have class, so it'll be a couple of hours before I can respond.

If this is to be a one-on-one debate, the forum rules specify that anyone may not chime in. Just sayin'.

 

[lovesong]

Ok, let's do this all at once!

Is that you in the avatar?

Also, do you belong to any groups that practice necromancy? Are you developing a sensitivity to being able to identify what it is that the dead are telling you?

Yes, that is me (with a lot of makeup and fancy camera angles)! So far every avatar I've had has been of me, and they will continue to be me.

Nope, no groups. There was a time when I was dating a necromancer who is relatively well known on a certain social media site, and not to get too into it, but he ended up being somewhat abusive to not only me, but his followers, and on top of that his methods and his attitude are just so, so bad. By bad I mean disrespectful, to both the people who trust him and to the dead. Anyway following him around was the closest I've ever had to a group, there aren't exactly a lot of us so there's not much room to congregate. As for the second question, understanding what you're being told is absolutely essential. If you can't interoperate what the dead are saying, there's little point in contacting them. It is hard sometimes to get a straight answer, as I'm sure you know, but being able to work through it is rewarding. I find that just working more closely to death itself as well as asking the question over and over can help.

First I would like to know if you accept there is a spiritual life that is available to us.

Second, what is the most attractive teaching of the path you are following?

No hurry, studying come first.

Sorry for the late reply, my pet died this afternoon and I was just too upset to reply sooner. I'm here now though.
Anyway, what exactly do you mean by a spiritual life that is available to us? Genuinely not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that there is some spiritual truth that we are able to learn? If that's the case, yes, definitely. If you mean that there is a spiritual "realm" that we can tap into, yes to that too.

As for the second part, hmmm.. that's a tricky one. There's a lot of things that are extremely attractive to me, don't think I could pick just one. The independence is definitely a perk. I am in charge of my own life, which has its pros and cons (I have the power to do great things with myself, but I also have the power to royally **** things up), but I'd prefer to at least have the opportunity to do well for myself. The lack of guilt, punishment, and potential torture is wonderful. There is no divine judge awaiting me, things are just neutral, they are what they are. What I do is what I do, and any punishment I will receive from it will come now (if I'm caught, that is ), just as that is the system that works from day to day in our lives, it is the system that works on the grander scale. The divinities that be don't give a flying frack about what we do down here, that's for us to work out. I'm also not made to feel ashamed or guilty for acting on my desires, in fact many desires are celebrated or enjoyed openly. Sex, drink, wealth, all of our pleasurable desires are wonderful things that we should be celebrating, not shaming. Speaking of which, sexual freedom! Need I say more? The potential for limitless growth is the last perk I'll mention. There is no reasonable limit to how much we can grow in knowledge and power. In many occult theories, the highest end goal is to become higher than the gods, to the point that we are able to control all that is. Now, to be fair, nobody has ever done this, and nobody probably ever will, but by setting our goal so high we can never hit the ceiling, we have endless potential. It is all very liberating, the quest for knowledge, the growth of power and control over our own situations, the freedom to explore our desires and celebrate the pleasures of life. It all makes for a very happy and empowering worldview.

This should be interesting.
I want a front row seat for his one.

Yay, I'm interesting! Goals.

Hey, you're frightening away the spooks!

Am I a spook? I better make sure I don't scare myself, eek!

 

[allfoak]

Yay, I'm interesting! Goals.

Yes you are!

 

[omega2xx]

This should be interesting.
I want a front row seat for his one.

Lets hope it is interesting and informamtive.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

I better make sure I don't scare myself, eek!

Boredom is most terrifying.
Fear is most boring.

I think that when some people hear a discarnate voice for the first time they get a silly compulsion to obey it.
Either this, or they think they are going crazy, and this somehow actually does drive them crazy.

I started speaking to spooks many years ago.
Though I haven't heard one for several years now.

 

[omega2xx]

Ok, let's do this all at once!


Yes, that is me (with a lot of makeup and fancy camera angles)! So far every avatar I've had has been of me, and they will continue to be me.

Nope, no groups. There was a time when I was dating a necromancer who is relatively well known on a certain social media site, and not to get too into it, but he ended up being somewhat abusive to not only me, but his followers, and on top of that his methods and his attitude are just so, so bad. By bad I mean disrespectful, to both the people who trust him and to the dead. Anyway following him around was the closest I've ever had to a group, there aren't exactly a lot of us so there's not much room to congregate. As for the second question, understanding what you're being told is absolutely essential. If you can't interoperate what the dead are saying, there's little point in contacting them. It is hard sometimes to get a straight answer, as I'm sure you know, but being able to work through it is rewarding. I find that just working more closely to death itself as well as asking the question over and over can help.



Sorry for the late reply, my pet died this afternoon and I was just too upset to reply sooner. I'm here now though.
Anyway, what exactly do you mean by a spiritual life that is available to us? Genuinely not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that there is some spiritual truth that we are able to learn? If that's the case, yes, definitely. If you mean that there is a spiritual "realm" that we can tap into, yes to that too.

Condolences about the loss of your pet. Losing anything loved is a sad thing. Don't be concerned about answering in specific time frame with me.

Your thoughts on "a spiritual life." is basically what I mean, especially about there being spiritual truths. If there are not spiritual truths the Bible is of little value. IMO, as you may have already guessed, spiritual truths can only be found in God's word. Let me add that spiritual truths are literally true. Being born again is a spiritual truth, but it is literally true that Christian have been born again.

Presbyterian theology teaches that man is born spiritually dead(Epk 2:1) and cannot come to God unless God awakens his spirit---every person born has a spirit. IMO, this is taught in the doctrine of the new birth. The literal, spiritual truth in being born again teaches that we play the same part in our spiritual birth as we did in our physical birth---nothing.

Now I know that runs around "free will," and I know there are verse that teach free will. So which one is true? Both are true. God's sovereignty and man's free will is an antinomy---2 apparent truths that seem to contradict each other---when you were born did you start living or dying?

As for the second part, hmmm.. that's a tricky one. There's a lot of things that are extremely attractive to me, don't think I could pick just one.

I understand that. If I had to pick the most attractive think in Christianity, it would be hard to do. If I got pinned down and had to give one, it would be the theology of the childrens song----Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. I would put an * at the end that quotes Rom 5:8 - God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,

The spiritual truth in that verse teaches us we don't have to get our spiritual act togeter for Jesus to love us.

The independence is definitely a perk. I am in charge of my own life, which has its pros and cons (I have the power to do great things with myself, but I also have the power to royally **** things up), but I'd prefer to at least have the opportunity to do well for myself.

That is basically the opposite of Christianity. WE gain personally and spiritually from our union with like minded believers. That might come from prayer, monetary help or just being a friend when needed. Christisn can also do well for themselves and need to.

The lack of guilt, punishment, and potential torture is wonderful.

When you messup royally and if effects someone else, should that no have some guilt attached?

There is no divine judge awaiting me, things are just neutral, they are what they are. What I do is what I do, and any punishment I will receive from it will come now (if I'm caught, that is ), just as that is the system that works from day to day in our lives, it is the system that works on the grander scale. The divinities that be don't give a flying frack about what we do down here, that's for us to work out. I'm also not made to feel ashamed or guilty for acting on my desires, in fact many desires are celebrated or enjoyed openly. Sex, drink, wealth, all of our pleasurable desires are wonderful things that we should be celebrating, not shaming. Speaking of which, sexual freedom! Need I say more?

Your view does not shock me, that is what I would expect from anyone who rejects the validity of the Bible. Do you really think adultery is acceptable?

That's better than Christianity if there is no such thing a sin. If the Bible definition of sin is correct, that is a fatal philosophy and you have no way to prove what you believe. In Christianity, we would see that as bondage, not as freedom.

The potential for limitless growth is the last perk I'll mention. There is no reasonable limit to how much we can grow in knowledge and power.

What power have you grown in since accepting the occult?

In many occult theories, the highest end goal is to become higher than the gods, to the point that we are able to control all that is. Now, to be fair, nobody has ever done this, and nobody probably ever will, but by setting our goal so high we can never hit the ceiling, we have endless potential.

To be fair, no god can control all there is, and no human can become higher than even god.

It is all very liberating, the quest for knowledge, the growth of power and control over our own situations, the freedom to explore our desires and celebrate the pleasures of life. It all makes for a very happy and empowering worldview.

Only truth is permanently liberating. No one will eve be able to control every aspects of their life. The older you get them more you will see that you can't. Even Christians can't do that, but our hope is not in this life but in the next one. Do you believe in an after life?

Is there anything you can point to that you think confirms what you believe is true?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'll kinda open this up too, so anyone that also has omega's curiosities can chime in, I don't mind. But I do have class, so it'll be a couple of hours before I can respond.

I've wondered if I'd be better off having class.
How did you get it?

 

[lovesong]

Condolences about the loss of your pet. Losing anything loved is a sad thing. Don't be concerned about answering in specific time frame with me.

I appreciate the condolences, thank you.

I understand that. If I had to pick the most attractive think in Christianity, it would be hard to do. If I got pinned down and had to give one, it would be the theology of the childrens song----Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. I would put an * at the end that quotes Rom 5:8 - God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,

The spiritual truth in that verse teaches us we don't have to get our spiritual act togeter for Jesus to love us.

I remember that song from when I was a wee little lovesong, along with the "I am a C, I am a C-H, ect, ect" one and the "deep and wide" one, haha!

That is basically the opposite of Christianity. WE gain personally and spiritually from our union with like minded believers. That might come from prayer, monetary help or just being a friend when needed. Christisn can also do well for themselves and need to.

It does seem like a lot of Pagan philosophy and occult theory (while they not equatable things, I find that they have some compatible overlaps. I do subscribe to both Pagan theological models and occult theories of the nature of the grander universe though, so that's why I'm putting them together) runs contrary to Christian theology and thought. There are a few things everyone can agree on like "be nice" and "don't kill people," but once you start looking deeper, that's where all the various religious traditions start to branch off, no two are the same.

When you messup royally and if effects someone else, should that no have some guilt attached?

By guilt I meant guilt for natural things like the body and our desires that seems to happen a lot in various modern monotheisms. If I do someone that I care about wrong, of course I will feel bad, but I would have no guilt for expressing sexuality, celebrating the body, indulging in pleasures, or embracing desires.

Your view does not shock me, that is what I would expect from anyone who rejects the validity of the Bible. Do you really think adultery is acceptable?

Depends on how you define adultery. I'm not saying this to try to be a smart***, I have before seen two different definitions, and how I feel about it differs based on the definition. The actual definition of the word is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse." If we use that definition, yes, it's perfectly fine, it may be wonderful for them. The key word here is "voluntary." I would assume that means consensual from all parties, including the other spouse. If one partner is fine with letting the other explore sexual relationships outside the marriage, that is a-ok. Some couples can even get a lot out of it when done together (the good ol' threesome). If you mean the more colloquial definition of adultery, that is "cheating," then no. Cheating harms the person who is being cheated on, often very deeply, and can splinter and break relationships. If you truly love and care for a person, you wouldn't want to do anything to hurt them so badly. This isn't a religious stance, but a common decency stance, a stance against hurting those you care about.

That's better than Christianity if there is no such thing a sin. If the Bible definition of sin is correct, that is a fatal philosophy and you have no way to prove what you believe. In Christianity, we would see that as bondage, not as freedom.

As a Christian, you are doing things that would prove to be fatal mistakes if other religions were true. There is absolutely no way whatsoever to follow every religion well enough to bypass every negative outcome possible. I have no way to prove my beliefs anymore than you do, and vise versa. That's the thing about religion, we can't really prove any of it. You have your beliefs and I have mine, it's silly to worry about what would happen if another religion were true, since then we would all be screwed!

What power have you grown in since accepting the occult?

Just a growth in personal strength and control over my situations and my world overall. Since coming to my current practice I've grown in knowledge and understanding, in my ability to manipulate the energies around me through practice and study (this would be the hands-on part, the magic bit), and in my understanding of myself and my situations. Since coming to my current faith I've grown in self-esteem, confidence, happiness, peace with myself, and sense of belonging in the world. I've grown closer to my gods, closer to the natural world around me, closer to the energies of things. I've just grown as a person overall as a result of my spiritual and religious affiliations, and I'm much happier for it.

To be fair, no god can control all there is, and no human can become higher than even god.

It is true that no god can control all there is, but in many occult theories, we have the potential to elevate ourselves above the gods, to the point that we can control it. Like I said, this has never been done, and probably never will be, but is the ultimate goal, the highest point one could possibly be. It is much less a realistic goal for ourselves than it is a reminder that we have no conceivable limit, we can always do more, become better, grow stronger. If you set your sights for the stars you can never hit the ceiling. For us there is always more to learn, more to know, more to do, and further to grow.

Only truth is permanently liberating. No one will eve be able to control every aspects of their life. The older you get them more you will see that you can't. Even Christians can't do that, but our hope is not in this life but in the next one.

Truth is very liberating! The other things I mentioned are liberating too, for us at least. But I guess they do tie in together, because for us, growing in knowledge and power is just coming closer to truth, or having a better understanding of it, and embracing pleasures comes with the truth that it is okay. Of course you would disagree about what is truth, but that is just another aspect of religion that varies greatly from tradition to tradition. I really don't care to argue over what is the ultimate truth, since no person can convince another to change their idea of truth, I really don't like even using the word when I don't have to because of how easily it lends itself to arguments with no end, but if we can agree to just not do that, we should be good.

Do you believe in an after life?

I do! It would be hard to do the whole necromancy thing if I didn't, haha.

Is there anything you can point to that you think confirms what you believe is true?

Other than personal experience? No. There is no proof to any of either of our beliefs, that's one of those big things about religion. We have some anecdotal evidence, but that's about it. You follow your anecdotes and I follow mine, and we both pray to the powers that be that we're not all just going crazy!

I've wondered if I'd be better off having class.
How did you get it?

Bahahaha, I didn't think of it like that!

 

[omega2xx]

I appreciate the condolences, thank you.



I remember that song from when I was a wee little lovesong, along with the "I am a C, I am a C-H, ect, ect" one and the "deep and wide" one, haha!

Isn't it interesting that we can remember many things we learned at a very young age and now I can't remember what I had for lunch

It does seem like a lot of Pagan philosophy and occult theory (while they not equatable things, I find that they have some compatible overlaps. I do subscribe to both Pagan theological models and occult theories of the nature of the grander universe though, so that's why I'm putting them together) runs contrary to Christian theology and thought. There are a few things everyone can agree on like "be nice" and "don't kill people," but once you start looking deeper, that's where all the various religious traditions start to branch off, no two are the same.

Yes all religion have some of the same moral teachings. It is interesting to me that every tribe eve found has had some belief in a higher power.Jn 1:9 says, "There was the true Light, which coming into the world, enlightens every man. IMO, that true Light puts the notion of God in every person. Do you believe in a God of any kind?

By guilt I meant guilt for natural things like the body and our desires that seems to happen a lot in various modern monotheisms. If I do someone that I care about wrong, of course I will feel bad, but I would have no guilt for expressing sexuality, celebrating the body, indulging in pleasures, or embracing desires.

Would you feel guilt if you committed adultery?

Depends on how you define adultery. I'm not saying this to try to be a smart***, I have before seen two different definitions, and how I feel about it differs based on the definition. The actual definition of the word is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse." If we use that definition, yes, it's perfectly fine, it may be wonderful for them. The key word here is "voluntary." I would assume that means consensual from all parties, including the other spouse. If one partner is fine with letting the other explore sexual relationships outside the marriage, that is a-ok. Some couples can even get a lot out of it when done together (the good ol' threesome). If you mean the more colloquial definition of adultery, that is "cheating," then no. Cheating harms the person who is being cheated on, often very deeply, and can splinter and break relationships. If you truly love and care for a person, you wouldn't want to do anything to hurt them so badly. This isn't a religious stance, but a common decency stance, a stance against hurting those you care about.

Do you really believe a man who loves his wife and sees her enjoying sex with another man would not be hurt very badly? How do you know your standard for morality is right?

As a Christian, you are doing things that would prove to be fatal mistakes if other religions were true. There is absolutely no way whatsoever to follow every religion well enough to bypass every negative outcome possible. I have no way to prove my beliefs anymore than you do, and vise versa. That's the thing about religion, we can't really prove any of it. You have your beliefs and I have mine, it's silly to worry about what would happen if another religion were true, since then we would all be screwed!

That depends if one of the religions is true. If Christianity is true, those with your theology are going to be a a peck of trouble when they die.. Are you familiar with Pascal's wager? I am going to paraphrase it for you but you need to look it up. It basically says, If Christianity is right, you gain everything; if it is wrong you lose nothing.

Just a growth in personal strength and control over my situations and my world overall. Since coming to my current practice I've grown in knowledge and understanding, in my ability to manipulate the energies around me through practice and study (this would be the hands-on part, the magic bit), and in my understanding of myself and my situations. Since coming to my current faith I've grown in self-esteem, confidence, happiness, peace with myself, and sense of belonging in the world. I've grown closer to my gods, closer to the natural world around me, closer to the energies of things. I've just grown as a person overall as a result of my spiritual and religious affiliations, and I'm much happier for it.

Glad its working out for you. IMO, the bottom line is, is their an after life, and if you died tonight would you go to this life. Is there a place of punishment for those who believe incorrectly about God and His standard of morality?

It is true that no god can control all there is, but in many occult theories, we have the potential to elevate ourselves above the gods, to the point that we can control it. Like I said, this has never been done, and probably never will be, but is the ultimate goal, the highest point one could possibly be. It is much less a realistic goal for ourselves than it is a reminder that we have no conceivable limit, we can always do more, become better, grow stronger. If you set your sights for the stars you can never hit the ceiling. For us there is always more to learn, more to know, more to do, and further to grow.

In Christianity we have a God who controls everything and only He can lift us up spiritually. The value of any belief system is can it be proved. Of course no spiritual beliefs can be proved outside the group that holds them. I did not become a Christians until I was 45. What I started doing was completely unnatural for me and only God could have caused it. My wife use to say it was a greater miracle than God parting the Red Sea.

Truth is very liberating! The other things I mentioned are liberating too, for us at least. But I guess they do tie in together, because for us, growing in knowledge and power is just coming closer to truth, or having a better understanding of it, and embracing pleasures comes with the truth that it is okay. Of course you would disagree about what is truth, but that is just another aspect of religion that varies greatly from tradition to tradition. I really don't care to argue over what is the ultimate truth, since no person can convince another to change their idea of truth, I really don't like even using the word when I don't have to because of how easily it lends itself to arguments with no end, but if we can agree to just not do that, we should be good.[/QUOTE]


True truth is liberating, but proving what we believe is the truth is very difficult. That is one reason I enjoy the Bible, It at least gives me something outside of myself to evaluate.

Other than personal experience? No. There is no proof to any of either of our beliefs, that's one of those big things about religion. We have some anecdotal evidence, but that's about it. You follow your anecdotes and I follow mine, and we both pray to the powers that be that we're not all just going crazy!

When nothing can be proved, your statement is about all we can do---follow the path we believe will take us to the promised land.

Yogi Berra was telling someone how to get to his house. He said when you come to a fork in the road, take it. Yogi lived in a cul-de-sac, so either fork would get them to his house. Unfortunately religion does not work that way.

Have a good one.

 

[lovesong]

Isn't it interesting that we can remember many things we learned at a very young age and now I can't remember what I had for lunch

Hahaha! Sometimes I forget if I even had lunch... this is the problem with napping during the day.

Yes all religion have some of the same moral teachings. It is interesting to me that every tribe eve found has had some belief in a higher power.Jn 1:9 says, "There was the true Light, which coming into the world, enlightens every man. IMO, that true Light puts the notion of God in every person.

I can completely understand that idea, that we all instinctively have some pull to the divine. It's just in our nature to question everything, and to try to find answers to those questions. Usually that ends up with religion happening.

Do you believe in a God of any kind?

Yes I do, lots of them!

Would you feel guilt if you committed adultery?

Well again, depends on which adultery we're talking about. My boyfriend is willing to have threesomes, and encourages me to seek out sexual relationships with other women because I enjoy it and he loves the thought. I would never cheat on him because I love him greatly, but if we decided to bring in a third person, that would be the best.

Do you really believe a man who loves his wife and sees her enjoying sex with another man would not be hurt very badly? How do you know your standard for morality is right?

Some men are turned on by watching his woman with another man, or with a woman. Some men also love threesomes. Also, what does it have to do with my sense of morality? My stance is against hurting a person you care for, which is a sentiment shared by every culture in existence. It isn't my personal standard for morality, it's one of the world's most basic moral principals. Are you okay with hurting someone you love?

That depends if one of the religions is true. If Christianity is true, those with your theology are going to be a a peck of trouble when they die.. Are you familiar with Pascal's wager? I am going to paraphrase it for you but you need to look it up. It basically says, If Christianity is right, you gain everything; if it is wrong you lose nothing.

If Islam is true, then you're in trouble too. If islam is right, you gain everything, if it's wrong you loose nothing. Same thing right? As for myself, I would rather live happily with the beliefs I hold than live a miserable life "just in case."

Glad its working out for you. IMO, the bottom line is, is their an after life, and if you died tonight would you go to this life. Is there a place of punishment for those who believe incorrectly about God and His standard of morality?

If I died tonight, yes I would go to the afterlife. I believe in one afterlife that all living things go to after death. Just as when we are born, we enter this world, when we die, we enter the afterlife. It is the natural process that is unaffected by what we think and do. I do not believe in any afterlife punishments, and I certainly do not believe in punishment for those who "believe incorrectly." This is akin to the idea of jail time for a thought crime, which I firmly believe is one of the most unjust things a person can be punished for.

 

[omega2xx]

Hahaha! Sometimes I forget if I even had lunch... this is the problem with napping during the day.



I can completely understand that idea, that we all instinctively have some pull to the divine. It's just in our nature to question everything, and to try to find answers to those questions. Usually that ends up with religion happening.

It is essential that we question everything. No one has perfect theology, we have false and ignorant teachers, and if we accept everything they say without question, they will control us. IMO it is just as bad to have a belief system with no scriptures to support what we believe. When that is true, we make your self god. We have our own tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If I decide something is good, it is good; if I decide something is sinful, it is sinful. Does you belief system have a concept of what is sinful?

Yes I do, lots of them!

What do they tell you and how do you determine if it comes from one of them and is true?

Well again, depends on which adultery we're talking about. My boyfriend is willing to have threesomes, and encourages me to seek out sexual relationships with other women because I enjoy it and he loves the thought. I would never cheat on him because I love him greatly, but if we decided to bring in a third person, that would be the best.

I would see that as him being more interested in sex and having his sexual desires fulfilled than expressing his love for you. True love is between two people not a group.

Some men are turned on by watching his woman with another man, or with a woman. Some men also love threesomes. Also, what does it have to do with my sense of morality? My stance is against hurting a person you care for, which is a sentiment shared by every culture in existence.[/QUOTE

There are also sexual perverts who prefer an orgy to real love. IMO, any who truly loves his wife or girlfriend would never enjoy seeing her having sex with another man. That is unnatural. If I was the woman and my husband/boyfriend encouraged me to do that, I would see it as a sign of not loving me. I don' think you understand men at all. True love goes beyond sex. It requires a personal commitment to the one loved, which usually includes marriage. There is an old saying, "why buy a cow when the milk is free." Maybe you don't need love, but I think you do. You just need to get it defined properly. A man saying "I love you" is the oldest line men have to get what they want sexually from women.

It isn't my personal standard for morality, it's one of the world's most basic moral principals. Are you okay with hurting someone you love?

What you consider appropriate sexual behavior is your own standard of morality, and it is not shared by the world. I truly loved my wife and would never be willing to share her with anothe man or woman.

If Islam is true, then you're in trouble too. If islam is right, you gain everything, if it's wrong you loose nothing. Same thing right? As for myself, I would rather live happily with the beliefs I hold than live a miserable life "just in case."

That's right but what makes you think Christians who try to live by the Bible live a miserable life? If I didn't enjoy going to church, I would not go and neither would as many as do go would either.

If I died tonight, yes I would go to the afterlife. I believe in one afterlife that all living things go to after death. Just as when we are born, we enter this world, when we die, we enter the afterlife. It is the natural process that is unaffected by what we think and do. I do not believe in any afterlife punishments, and I certainly do not believe in punishment for those who "believe incorrectly." This is akin to the idea of jail time for a thought crime, which I firmly believe is one of the most unjust things a person can be punished for.

You have picked that fruit from you personal tree of the knowledge of good and evil and have nothing except your opinion that it is good fruit.

Well just like if the Muslims are right, I will be in trouble, the same is true of those who do not accept Christianity if it is right.

If your boyfriend truly loved you, he would not share you with another. One does not even need the Bible to understand that.

Don't take this as being judgmental. I am not anyone's judge. Take it as the knowledge that comes from living 84 years and at one time, having many similar attitudes. They changed when I fell in love with my wife. I would no have shared her even before we were married. To do so after we were would have been an abomination to our marriage contract.

 

[lovesong]

Oh god, the formatting definitely got messed up there. It won't let me properly quote it so I'll see what I can do...

It is essential that we question everything. No one has perfect theology, we have false and ignorant teachers, and if we accept everything they say without question, they will control us.

Agreed!

Does you belief system have a concept of what is sinful?

I don't believe in the idea of sin. Nothing is purely bad or purely good, everything that happens has both positive and negative effects. Some things have more of one than the other, and that is why we call some things bad and other good, but according to my worldview there is not a single thing that only has one or the other.

What do they tell you and how do you determine if it comes from one of them and is true?

Same way you do, same way anyone else does; its a combination of experience, trust, and faith. We all trust our G/god/s to be truthful, we have faith.

I would see that as him being more interested in sex and having his sexual desires fulfilled than expressing his love for you. True love is between two people not a group.

Having sexual desires fulfilled is a huge part of a healthy, solid relationship. Furthermore, being able to express our deepest desires to eachother, and having those desires accepted, is an incredibly trust-building activity, we bond over our ability to share our deepest selves and be loved for them. Also, polyamory is a thing. Polyamory is where a person has strong emotional relationships with more than one person at a time, with any combination of people participating. I've had amazing polyamorous relationships before. My relationship with him now is not polyamorous, but we still enjoy the idea of broadening our sexual horizons.

There are also sexual perverts who prefer an orgy to real love.

Please, please don't try to put people down or degrade them for their sexual interests. Also, sex and love are not synonymous. Sex can come from love, and love can come from sex, but they can also exist completely on their own. Him and I have sex, we also love eachother. If we chose to bring in another person (probably a woman), we would not love her, but would instead be engaging in a fun and recreational activity with her. We can have sex for any number of non-romantic reasons, and we can love a person for any number of non-sexual reasons, the two things are not one and the same.

IMO, any who truly loves his wife or girlfriend would never enjoy seeing her having sex with another man. That is unnatural.

Why is it unnatural? Most creatures are non-monogamous (us included, at one point!), and there are a number of other animals that engage in purely social or non-mating sexual acts (dolphins, bats, chimps, gorillas, and most prominently bonobos). And just as I'm not allowed to define morality, you aren't allowed to define love.

If I was the woman and my husband/boyfriend encouraged me to do that, I would see it as a sign of not loving me.

Then that is how your relationship would be, and that's okay. Mine isn't like that, and that's okay too. Whatever works for the people involved so that everyone is happy is fine. In my relationship, we see the ability to express our deepest sexual desires as a sign of trust, and our accepting of or even enjoying them as a sign of love. The more open we can be with eachother, about everything, not just sex, the closer we grow together.

I don' think you understand men at all.

I understand my man very well, thank you. Men aren't just one single entity, there are many types of people, and I understand the type of people I enjoy being around and dating pretty well.

True love goes beyond sex. It requires a personal commitment to the one loved, which usually includes marriage.

Yes, love goes beyond sex indeed, and a personal commitment that includes love and trust is essential. We do plan to get married, and I agree with you that marriage is one of the most outstanding proclamations of love. But love and sex are different things. We enjoy doing sex the way we enjoy it, but it doesn't mean we love eachother or are any less committed than anyone who enjoys doing sex the way you enjoy it.

Maybe you don't need love, but I think you do.

Oh, I know I need love! I'm a hopeless romantic if there ever was one.

You just need to get it defined properly.

I have a huge problem with this. You do not have the authority to define love. I do not either, nobody does. We have to define it for ourselves in a way that works for us and whoever we love. There is no proper definition of love. The closest we could come to this is a deep bond between people that is built upon trust, respect, commitment, and understanding. Can you agree with that part? Even this little bit gets murky depending on the time frame and culture you look at, but given our time period and our general cultural background, I would argue that this is pretty solid, and anything beyond that is up for some serious debate.

That's right but what makes you think Christians who try to live by the Bible live a miserable life? If I didn't enjoy going to church, I would not go and neither would as many as do go would either.

There we go, back to religion! We slipped away from it for a little bit there. I don't think that all people living a Christian life are miserable at all. I meant that I would be miserable if I were to do it, that's all. I see how that might not have been too clear, but no, I didn't mean for everyone, just for myself.

 

[omega2xx]

Oh god, the formatting definitely got messed up there. It won't let me properly quote it so I'll see what I can do...



Agreed!

I don't believe in the idea of sin. Nothing is purely bad or purely good, everything that happens has both positive and negative effects. Some things have more of one than the other, and that is why we call some things bad and other good, but according to my worldview there is not a single thing that only has one or the other.

What makes you believe that?

Same way you do, same way anyone else does; its a combination of experience, trust, and faith. We all trust our G/god/s to be truthful, we have faith.

Not the same way Christians do. We have a guide that tells us what God considers sin. It is different than your world view, so how do we determine which view is right?

Having sexual desires fulfilled is a huge part of a healthy, solid relationship. Furthermore, being able to express our deepest desires to eachother, and having those desires accepted, is an incredibly trust-building activity, we bond over our ability to share our deepest selves and be loved for them. Also, polyamory is a thing. Polyamory is where a person has strong emotional relationships with more than one person at a time, with any combination of people participating. I've had amazing polyamorous relationships before. My relationship with him now is not polyamorous, but we still enjoy the idea of broadening our sexual horizons.

WE differ greatly here. Polyamorous relations are not built on true love.

Please, please don't try to put people down or degrade them for their sexual interests. Also, sex and love are not synonymous. Sex can come from love, and love can come from sex, but they can also exist completely on their own. Him and I have sex, we also love eachother. If we chose to bring in another person (probably a woman), we would not love her, but would instead be engaging in a fun and recreational activity with her. We can have sex for any number of non-romantic reasons, and we can love a person for any number of non-sexual reasons, the two things are not one and the same.

I said I was not judging you. Disagreeing and rejection a viewe is not judging or degrading. You reject my view, ae you putting me down and degrading me?

Why is it unnatural? Most creatures are non-monogamous (us included, at one point!), and there are a number of other animals that engage in purely social or non-mating sexual acts (dolphins, bats, chimps, gorillas, and most prominently bonobos). And just as I'm not allowed to define morality, you aren't allowed to define love.

You have defined love, so why am I not allowed to? I have given you some examples that IMO, are just the opposite of true love.

Then that is how your relationship would be, and that's okay. Mine isn't like that, and that's okay too. Whatever works for the people involved so that everyone is happy is fine. In my relationship, we see the ability to express our deepest sexual desires as a sign of trust, and our accepting of or even enjoying them as a sign of love. The more open we can be with eachother, about everything, not just sex the closer we grow together.

IMO, one day you will understand your view is far from real love. Hope I am wrong.

]I understand my man very well, thank you. Men aren't just one single entity, there are many types of people, and I understand the type of people I enjoy being around and dating pretty well.

I have given my opinion; I will leave it at that.

Yes, love goes beyond sex indeed, and a personal commitment that includes love and trust is essential. We do plan to get married, and I agree with you that marriage is one of the most outstanding proclamations of love. But love and sex are different things. We enjoy doing sex the way we enjoy it, but it doesn't mean we love eachother or are any less committed than anyone who enjoys doing sex the way you enjoy it.

Some research has shown that relations like yours seldom results in marriage.

Oh, I know I need love! I'm a hopeless romantic if there ever was one.

Everyone needs love.

I have a huge problem with this. You do not have the authority to define love. I do not either, nobody does. We have to define it for ourselves in a way that works for us and whoever we love. There is no proper definition of love. The closest we could come to this is a deep bond between people that is built upon trust, respect, commitment, and understanding. Can you agree with that part? Even this little bit gets murky depending on the time frame and culture you look at, but given our time period and our general cultural background, I would argue that this is pretty solid, and anything beyond that is up for some serious debate.

Culture has nothing to do with defining love. The definition of true love does not change with the times. IMO any commitment that does not result in marriage is lip service, not genuine commitment.

There we go, back to religion! We slipped away from it for a little bit there. I don't think that all people living a Christian life are miserable at all. I meant that I would be miserable if I were to do it, that's all. I see how that might not have been too clear, but no, I didn't mean for everyone, just for myself.

[/QUOTE]

 

[lovesong]

What makes you believe that?

I could ask the same of you, really. Why do you believe in a duality of absolutes and the idea of sin? It's just part of your belief system, as the lack of duality is part of mine. This lack of duality is what I see when I look at the world. I see nothing that only has positive or negative consequences, every action produces some amount of both.

Not the same way Christians do. We have a guide that tells us what God considers sin. It is different than your world view, so how do we determine which view is right?

We can't. Nobody has proof of anything. We just have to trust our experiences and have faith that our worldview is on the right track to reality.

As for all of the points about love, I'm not going to continue with that. When two people disagree on what I would say is one of the most fundamental aspects of the human experience (that being love), there is no hope for a discussion on the topic. I have a very different view of love than you do, that's clear. You are happily married long enough (I assume) to be set in your ways so I have no chance or even a need to convince you that love is much more diverse than you think it is. As long as you don't try to stop others from being happy, it doesn't matter what you do on your own time. I am perfectly content in my relationship and my attitudes towards love and sex have brought me nothing but happiness throughout my life, the emotions I feel are not going to change because someone else told me they're wrong.

 

[Milton Platt]

@omega2xx, I made the thread! Go ahead and ask whatever you want.

I'll kinda open this up too, so anyone that also has omega's curiosities can chime in, I don't mind. But I do have class, so it'll be a couple of hours before I can respond.

Geez.....I had to scroll down the thread a bit to realize that we weren't going to be discussing a new space probe to some far off celestial body.