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Featured Old Testament versus New Testament

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by midopafo, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    It is all about patience and not taking revenge.
    It is about loving your neighbor.


    Matthew 5:38-48 New International Version (NIV)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
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    And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
     
  2. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

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    Eye for eye was not mandatory. One could forgive if they wanted to. The command is not to forgive our enemies, it is to love them. Forgiveness is based on them repenting of what they have done.
     
  3. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Oki doki there's Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi there alright - political figures of the 20th century.

    It wasn't meant to be political. It is about forgiving and mercy.
    But the assailant must slap on the right cheek hence using his left hand because if it is the other way around, I guess all bets are off. :cool:
     
  5. trablano

    trablano Member

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    You haven't understood Paul's directive not to use the Law in conjunction with Jesus. That really means, do not base your theology only on the bible, because essentially the whole bible is the Law. The Laws are meant for interpretation, you must know Jesus' directive of his faith and love as expressed in his life, death and resurrection. The cross means forgiveness for all, hence we all go to Heaven except those who want to dwell in the hell realm in order to do evil there. There is no condemnation of nobody.

    Additionally, there are also other gods than Jesus and His Father and they work together and form the sacred Elohim... this is also in the Old Testament, and Elohim means "we", so all gods together created the cosmos and order it and bless it and make it very good.

    At this age we suffer from putting loyalty over love, the Jihadists killing people for Allah and christians denouncing homosexuals for Jesus. This will stop in the coming years because the heat will leave us and we will return to love and serving goodness. We cannot serve the gods in the way we have done in the past in our religions. New tolerance must come to us. New love and progress for all.
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Some christian scholars etc actually have a Torah to NT continuity idea, or a Judaism Tanakh perspective to NT, continuity idea.
     
    #66 Desert Snake, May 20, 2017
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    It also tells men to not shave. Ever meet a jewish man who shaves his beard?
     
  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It's not a versus

    Jesus had a parable about a poor man who died named Lazarus
    and in it he tied Abraham, Moses and himself (the one to be believed in who would come back from the dead)
    so... there is a strong thread of continuity somehow

    Abraham said if they won't believe in Moses they won't believe in Jesus even if he would rise from the dead so to speak (to paraphrase)
    tying it al together
     
  9. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

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    It is not a parable. If anything it is an allegory and allegories are based on what is literal(Gal 4:24-31).
     
  10. Torah4Yah

    Torah4Yah Member

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    YHWH said not a jot or tittle would be lost. Jot's and tittle's are found in the Hebrew language not Greek.

    YHWH said his word would be preserved, not a jot or tittle would be lost. The Hebrew of the NT doesn't exist just a few letters here and there. So since the NT Hebrew was lost is it scripture?
    NO!

    YHWH word is preserved in the Hebrew as he said it would be.

    Muhammad wasn't given anything by God, he made a prophecy 500 years after his death didn't come to be so he fails Deuteronomy 18 test and is a false prophet.

    His god allah reserves hottest places in hell for torture of peaceful Muslim's. So allah is going to be personally tortureing people in hell? Sounds like Satan to me.

    Paul also failed Deuteronomy 18 test and he shares a bright flashing light encounter just as Muhammad did.

    Muhammad claims he road a winged *** to the temple but the temple didn't exist anymore when he claimed it. That is called a lie.

    Both of these men had a ride to the 3rd heaven.
     
    #70 Torah4Yah, Jul 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  11. trablano

    trablano Member

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    Please understand that faith, hope and love cannot be really acquired and practiced if have set your heart on zealotry. Remember the example of the Jews of whom Paul said, they have zeal for God, but without enlightenment. The Jews of Jesus' time were sometimes a fanatic lot and it's harder to convert a fanatic than an atheist. Reach out gently to God and let him touch you with tenderness and touch him the same way. That is how we can really learn to walk like Jesus, without wrath and damnation but in grace, love and truth. Moses is not our aim, the Law has been done away with. So now do not turn christian teachings into another mosaic zeal construct. Instead be spiritual and follow the Holy Spirit. Lighten a candle today and pray with a sincere heart. God will come to you if you are tender to Him. Love is no fanatism but a gentle appreciation and communication with the Beloved...
     
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It's better to think of both love and judgement seen in greater clarity in new verses old
    Both love and judgement ratcheted up in the new rather than one preferred over the other

    Ironically the Old Testament closes with a book about love and possibly most people might find that surprising
    Malachi's didactic diagnosis of strong and weak loves with prognosi…
     
  13. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    All scripture is 'God breathed' scouring to Paul to Timothy
    All God breathed even though through human instruments
    I would see some parts as foundational in some ways
    and building to others

    'and in the fullness of time Jesus came'
     
  14. cbullion

    cbullion Member

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    MATTHEW 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Revelation 11, statement about "Pain for Pain" and "Death for Death" with the "Two Witnesses" is the same statement of an "Eye for an Eye"..................the law has never changed it is the same today as the day it was written.

    Revelation 22, statement about "Adding to the Gospel will bring Death", and "Removing from the Gospel will bring Blindness" is the same statment of "Forgive Your Enemies" .................... you put your enemies into the trust of lord to finish their judgment, they will remain blind until they pass, or they will die of their own accord, you have forgiven them from any judgment or point of discernment you can offer.

    (No Sign and No Vision before the Judgment in the New Testament, only in the Old Testament, the enemies of God have "blindness and dumbness", that is, "No Man Knows the Hour" and etc.)

    1. God gave Moses a Sign before Three Days of Darkness in the Old Testament to deliver the Hebrews.
    2. God does not give Moses a Sign before Three Days of Darkness in the Events of the New Testament/Revelation

    (Global Terrorism, "Lives Don't Matter", and the list goes on are direct results of using force against the "Two Witnesses", and this will last until the "Three Days of Darkness" begins and action against the global community is completed in the "Twinkling of an Eye")
     
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    In the ending of Daniel, it says seal up these words for the (apparently more distant future) where knowledge and travel will be increased.... and in Revelation, the opposite, do not seal up these words ( for the time is apparently near)

    A Posited Debate: Is Daniel Trustworthy?
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain exactly how you are to love your enemies?
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Romans 12:16-21
    "16 Have the same attitude toward others as toward yourselves; do not set your mind on lofty things, but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become wise in your own eyes.

    17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of* all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."


    I couldn't have said it better myself.....:) No anger, no vengeance, no retaliation. Leave that to God.
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I know what that those verses are saying.

    But you believe that if someone comes to do you bodily harm, you just stand there and let them do whatever to you.

    didn't you read what it says at the bottom 21--"Do not let yourself be conquered by evil, but keep conquering the evil with good"
    Therefore you do not let those who seek to do evil to you, but keep conquering the evil with good, Therefore let your good show them the error of their evil.

    What does it mean to conquer another.it means to fight against them to show them the evil of their way.

    To love your enemy is to show them the error of their way.
    To show love to your enemy you would not let them walk off a cliff.but you would try and stop them, If your enemy comes to hurt you, You fight against them to show them the error of their way.

    When Israel went out against their enemy, and destroyed their enemy, where was the love, no retaliation, No vengeance, no retaliation, it was God that told Israel many times to go out and kill their enemies.
    Because if someone comes to hurt you, you have the God given right to defend yourself. As did Israel.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We can take our lead from the apostles when they were arrested and put in prison for their preaching. They never retaliated or said a bad word against their oppressors. Jesus didn't either. He quietly went to his death as an innocent man. Christian martyrs have done so all through history.

    On a personal level, we can also take our example from Jesus. The times when opposers wanted to do him bodily harm, he simply left the scene. He could have commanded 12 legions of angels if he'd wanted to, but he didn't. We can defend ourselves to an extent, but never could we deal someone a blow that might take their life. We would be as guilty as they were.

    We can often do better by just being submissive. If they are unchallenged and we speak mildly to them, then sometimes it diffuses the situation and they will leave us alone. This has been the experience of some of my brothers.

    Jesus said....“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

    Tell me how you can love someone by doing them harm?

    Conquering evil with good means cancelling out one with the other. When someone does something bad to you...you cannot do something bad back to them. That is returning evil for evil.

    You can do that by your words and actions. We are to be peaceable with all men, not just the ones who are peaceable with us.

    That is not what Jesus taught. Many Christians have lost their lives to men of violence, but fighting violence with violence is what we were never told to do. Quite the opposite.

    Using Israel as an example does not work for Christians. We have no sanction from God to harm anyone, not even an enemy.

    Think for a moment why God sanctioned wars for his ancient people.....they had been gifted a good land and it was the envy of their enemies who tried to make war with them and steal what God had given them. They protected their God-given land because God told them to. They had divine sanction to act as his executioners. This had a two-fold purpose...to protect what was theirs, and to show those nations that Israel's God was superior to their own.

    Christians live in every nation on earth, so there is no longer any land to protect. Our citizenship as Christians is in God's kingdom, not any earthly one. We were told by Jesus to be "no part of this world". As Paul said...."vengeance belongs to God" not us.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Seeing you have no idea what Paul is talking about in Romans 12:17-21, You take a few Verses way out of their context, not even knowing what it any of it means.
    You don't even know who Paul is taking to or referring to.
     
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