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Old Testament Battles and Wars

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by t3gah, Jan 22, 2005.

?
  1. Yes

    9 vote(s)
    52.9%
  2. No

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    There have been many a claim that the bible allowed battles and wars and that's why Christians say it's OK too. What do the actual accounts in the scriptures have to say though? Here are some World English Bible scriptures with the accounts and reasonings:

    See also the links below:



    In all of the accounts I have posted God is an active participant. Those who tried to go into battle without God failed and were crushed or fell out of favor with God. There were even times when God told whomever not to go into battle or even follow certain individuals. Also there are many occasions where the chosen ones were attempting to be deceitful and work some behind the scenes deal to trap others in which God stepped in and told them what for.

    So in all case except one, God takes and active part. The one case that is a cause for concern is David versus Goliath. Here David just thinks it up and goes after Goliath. The account goes on to state the true God is with David though.

    This one account is probably the account most abused by persons who don't understand the whole reason the battles and wars are listed.

    All for God with God's actual blessing. No battles are to be fought without God's blessing.

    When Jesus came to earth he gave the new commandments to the apostle Paul divine enlightenment. Those scriptures are in Romans. One that comes to mind is "return evil for evil to no one" - Romans 12:17.
     
  2. TripleHelix

    TripleHelix Member

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    I dont understand what your getting at. Wars are usually fought over worldly possesions, such as land or oil supposedly, but wars in the bible are fought over a faith and an idea. Sometimes the only way to really defend your faith or the land you are living in seems to be to wage war or kill your enemies. That's just what it seems like. In some cases, war is the only way. Words will not stop a zealot who wants to die for his religion.
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    There is some ambiguity about the question; the tread is entitled 'Old testament Battles and Wars'; the poll on which I voted was :- 'Is it ok for a Christian to go into a battle or war?'

    Hi TripleHelix,

    You have a point. However, what about World War two ? - As a Christian I would have felt a sense of duty to go to war against Hitler. It was'nt so much a 'going to war' as an act of defence; hitler would have had the entire World if he had been allowed to, and would have killed every Jew on Earth. It would have been an un-Christian act not to have fought; my mother was a pacifist and yet helped the war effort.:)
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Besides, who's to say which wars God does, or does not condone?
    We don't have the pleasure of prophets any more.
    I agree with the WW2 statement that Michel gave. Do you think God would have wanted the Jews to be wiped out??? It was war that stopped that from happening.
     
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  5. TripleHelix

    TripleHelix Member

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    Good points everybody. My thought is that god would want us to fight on earth. We are here and we are the ones who have to stop people like Hitler, and Saddam Hussein. God, I believe will help the "good side" and will lead them to victory. I think it is in fact okay for chrisitans to go to war. In the bible, in one of the Gospels, Jesus says "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what's Gods' in other words, it seems like it's okay to go to war, but don't sin while your there.
     
  6. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Thats a good point. There can be a fine line. Lot's of people in war just want the chance to kill somebody, whether it be for the experience, for their ego, or from perversion. When you're in that kind of situation you have to remember why you're there, what you're doing, and remember that it's your duty, not your pleasure.... or at least should be.
    War is here to stay.
     
  7. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    What about when Jesus says when someone strikes you, turn and offer the other cheek?

    Just throwing that fly in the ointment. ;)


    Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
    With the cross of Jesus going on before.
    Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
    Forward into battle see His banners go!

    Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
    With the cross of Jesus going on before....
     
  8. angellous_evangellous

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    When Jesus talked about turning the other cheek, the context was personal, not national. If someone wants to strike you for your belief in Christ, you are to turn the other cheek literally.

    However, war is an instrument that unfortunately will be with humanity for the forseeable future. As long as there is a desire for liberty, there will be wars. Liberty has always required governments, and governments communicate with one another by means of war. It is how liberty is fashioned, and so far humanity has communally concluded that liberty is more precious than tyranny, which is the only way theoretically that all wars would cease. That is, if we had a one-world government that was able to control all weapons and all ideas and unify the entire world and give justice, food, and safety to the entire world, there would be no wars.

    Christians have the responsibility to fight for liberty and justice for all. We were right to fight for the cause of freedom. Liberty is more valuable than life. I would give my life to be free, and I will take a life for freedom. The value of liberty is seen in the life and death of Jesus Christ: He gave his life so that we could be free.
     
  9. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Why is it that God, in all his might, is powerless to do it on his own - a really good killing of the first-born might do the trick.

    There is feeling that the Muslim God and Christian God are the same. How then can both sides claim God's favor when 9/11 happened?


    If this post is determined to be too contraversial for this forum it should be moved to Religious Debate
     
  10. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    But could it not be extended to concern entire nations?

    Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Love thy neighbour.

    These teachings seem to suggest that Christians should be pacifist. Love thy neighbour being the 11th and greatest commandment - going to war with your neighbour because he is for example a Muslim is not obeying this commandment.

    But then we have the Knights Templar, the most religiously devout monks in recorded history, who also went to fight and kill in the name of Christ.
     
  11. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Lets see how it plays out, if a debate arises it'll be moved.
     
  12. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    It seems that everyone who made comment in this tread is for the doctrine of war.
    :tsk:
    I will admit that for most of my life I would have agreed with most statements;however, when the Spirit of the lord gave me this pearl in 1993 i somehow knew that it was never to shed blood. That pearl which is given to me is written in proverbs "for by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war." Then in 2001, May-June 15 I understood that by revelation given to me that the beast in Revelation 13 the Roman Empire and the Second beast with two horns is the Holy Roman Empire that the battle of Armageddon is the Crusades that the image of the cross is the Mark of the beast, that the head wound of the first beast was healed by the sign of the cross, that the second beast exerciseth the same power of the first beast, which is to make war, that the false prophet invented gun power so that he might decieve all the nations by commanding fire to come down from heaven in the earth in the sight of men, that John was instructed that in the beginning of the book that these things must shortly come to pass, that the nations have been in darkness, all this time that like Jesus said in the beginning that the way is narrow, that many, would seek to find it and shall not be able, that broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many would follow that path while few would find the way to life as I just said, That Jesus put that man's ear back on his head which Peter cut off, that He told Pilate that his kingdom is not of this world, else would my servants fight, That the kingdom's of this world have become the kingdom's of our Lord, that the valley of Jehosaphat is where Jehosaphat obtained a great victory against his enemies simply by the use of psalmists and singers, that in revelation6:9-11 the Martyrs are given white robes were given unto every one of them and they were told that they should rest for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethern should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled. Today while we talk this is being fulfilled in China, in Veit Nam, in N.Korea, in Islamic nations like pakistan, Iran , Iraq, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, and so on. No Army has defended any of these, Now if these are not defended, and their blood speaks like the Blood of righteous Abel, how do you justify ever killing one persson for liberty. Doth not God judge the earth, does He not exact vengeance and tribulation on those his enemies. When He sent Isreal into captivity did he not punish the captors. And do we do to Saddam Insane what He did to Kuwait and not expect Judgment. Will not God strike a nation lifted up in pride. Does he not hate this very trait in man that wil exalt itself against Him that abideth forever. Are we not prone to make the same mistsakes that countless others before us who acheived great sucess. But the image of the Beast (Roman, and Holy Roman Empires.) Do I have to tellyou who is Mystery Babylon is.
     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    It seems to me that war and, in fact, any affiliation with the military at all is at odds with the ethos preached in Christian churches. Christianity today seems largely to ignore the Old Testament God of war, carnage and genocide and portrays a loving, compassionate, pacific Christ as the exemplar of proper conduct.

    Christians are enjoined to turn the other cheek, do good to those that persecute them, to be peacemakers, meek and merciful. Jesus does not say that these values may be put aside when they become inconvenient or inexpedient, or when you feel threatened. He warns that you should not live by the sword; that it profits you nothing even to gain the whole world, if you loose your soul.

    The military seems to me to be everything Christ's philosophy is not. Boot camp entails a rigorous program to wipe out all the values you've learned in church and replace them with unquestioning obedience to secular leaders, even if ordered to commit sinful acts and actions that will almost surely result in harm to innocent non-combatants, women and children. Soldiers abdicate responsibility for their actions (as if such a thing were possible). They seem to believe that their superior officers can take unto themselves the consequences and responsibility for their actions. I'm pretty sure Christians learn in church that this role was reserved solely for Christ.

    A true Christian lives in imitation of Christ, in the hope of eternal life with God. He would not put manna before salvation. He would never affiliate with an organization whose purpose is to kill perfect strangers and destroy their property and livelihoods.
     
  14. opensoul7

    opensoul7 Active Member

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    Matthew 10:34
    "do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth ; I did not come to bring peace , but a sword."
     
  15. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    I believe that if Christians were truly followers of Christ, that they would never go to war, or raise an opposing hand if attacked.
     
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  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    when a person does live to the teachings of christ ,it coarses devision ,because people want you to be a part of the world , but Jesus told his followers to be no part of the world , so this sword is not a litral sword ,but becoming a follower of christ will be difficult in a world that does not live to the teachings of christ .
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    which just goes to show how difficult it is for a true christian to be living in a world that he has to not be a part of, Jesus said that his followers would be no part of the world .
    "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."—JOHN 17:16

    "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) John’s words about the world are true. The wars, crime, cruelty, oppression, dishonesty, and immorality that are so rampant today give evidence of Satan’s, not God’s, influence. (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 6:12) When an individual becomes a true christian he will not practice or consent to such wrong practices, and that makes him no part of the world.—Romans 12:2; 13:12-14; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 John 3:10-12 yet look how those who did not want to fight and kill people in the wars of man ,are persucuted for it

     
  18. opensoul7

    opensoul7 Active Member

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    Just to play a opposite side of thought , I guess that is where perspective and interpretation come into hand . There are those that take the bible completly literal , if you do , jesus does not specify or allude to a spiritual sword . And considering the time frame and histroical aspect of his life and Judea why would he not have ment a real sword. I feel the statement is pretty straight forward in thought and intention.
     
  19. opensoul7

    opensoul7 Active Member

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    You are right it is sad that the peacefull are usually the first to be killed . I also do believe that Jesus in teaching and action was a pacifist.
     
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  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    The Defender's notes say (About the verse you quoted) :-Jesus was prophesied to be the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) and "peace on earth" was the angel's song at His birth (Luke 2:14); yet He has been the very center of conflict in the world ever since He came. Those who receive Him, however, do "have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). The promise of global peace will finally be fulfilled when Christ returns.
     
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