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Old Earth vs Young Earth Debate
WalterTrull
Godfella
Oh, don't count us flat earthers out. The earth is continuously created as a mental image. It is as old as whichever concept you'd like to use to analyze its structure.
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
The Earth is older than dirt...
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Perhaps God predestined a young earth to look old? ;-)
Can you tell us what this comment is supposed to mean? If you have something to share about the apparent inaccuracy of my statement, then please provide it....otherwise your comment just is meaningless negativity. Please enlighten us.
we-live-now
Active Member
I am a believer in scripture very literally and at the same time believe the Earth is the age that science tells us. So many readers of the OT (and New) have erroneously attempted to understand the words according to our present reality (of space and time) we now "see" outwardly. If one believes scripture truly is God's word (who is eternal), then wouldn't the words have an eternal reference point outside of space and time?
One HUGE and yet very subtle thing that some don't see is that Gen 1:1 speaks of "The-Earth" whereas Gen 1:2 speaks of "and-the-earth". These are two completely different things in the perfection of scripture. Verse 2 would be "the-earth" (unchanging, spiritual) wrapped in "and" (fleshly/change/natural life). This is more likely a spiritual body (current body we live in) than the round Earth we stand on or the spiritual side/body of the entire living Earth.
We are totally blind-sided by "and". However, once we see this we can realize that most of Genesis 1 (and most of scripture) is written (hidden) in the flesh as the verses or words start with "and". "And" simply has no start nor finish and is God's "clay" if you will. It is revealed here in John 1:14 about this special word "and".
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:14
We could rephrase it and say "The word 'and' became flesh".
So, I conclude there is no time even present here in these verses as this is all from God's view outside of time where change (and) occurs. Thus, there could be a million or a billion years from Gen 1:1 to Gen 1:2 according to the linear view of time. I personally believe it is all still occurring as the "and" is being added and removed. Do you see change or "and" in the Earth today?
Other things I have noticed about the days. Day "one" and day "The Sixth" are special. "The sixth" is the only one that has "the" in front of it. It is a special day when we receive a "duplicate portion" in Ex 16:22, 29.
"One" is a really special word (and day) especially considering John 10:30 "I and my father are ONE". This word appears 500 times in the OT which is quite a bit. However, the word "and" (flesh) appears a whopping 51,312 times in 19,873 OT verses and 9,278 times in 7,957 NT verses.
The word for "one" as in day "ONE" is also the same word of "place ONE" of Gen 1:9 (where all "the waters" are going to) and "flesh ONE" of Gen 2:24. Because Rev 17:15 reveals "the waters" are "peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues, I believe this is the one location, time, and body we are all going to where there is no division. All (space, time, body) will be "One". Hard to ponder... but is a beautiful view if one gets a glimpse.
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I believe that you mistranslate Genesis 1:1.
Details? These are throw away lines.....we need evidence. Care to provide some? Why have I mistranslated Genesis 1:1?
we-live-now
Active Member
gnostic
The Lost One
The Genesis account does not state the timeframe between the creation of the "heavens and the earth" and the events that prepared the earth for habitation.
Genesis 1:1....."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
This is a singular statement.....a time when God created matter...the physical universe with all that it contains.
Then in verse 2 it speaks about the state of the planet before God began to work on it.....
"2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters."
The creative 'days' were not 24 hour periods, but could have been epochs of perhaps millions of years, wherein God accomplished by increments, all the creative processes he had planned.
The first thing God did was allow light to penetrate the darkness of the earth's surface. With the earth's rotation, light and dark became obvious and were named day and night. We have no way of knowing if humans knew about any of this prior to Moses writing of Genesis. The book of Job has some insights, but it too was written by Moses.
The Bible says that the earth at first was covered in water and then God created an atmosphere where eventually creatures would live and breathe the air( in just the right mixture of gases) that he created there. There was water on the surface of the earth and also above it. No air or water (vital for life) would ever escape into space because God created a way for it to be retained and replenished, perpetually.
Dry land would also make a division in the oceans and various forms of vegetation were the first living things to be created. That is not to say that bacteria wasn't created first, but not mentioned in the creation account. They were never supposed to be a problem for humans, but part of the process of recycling that God put in place to keep the earth from being engulfed by rotting dead material. "Nature" takes care of death by taking everything back into the earth to regenerate it. It was a masterful system....pure genius!
Then God apparently cleared away the remaining cloud layers so that the "luminaries" (sun, moon and stars that he created along with the earth) became visible in the sky for the first time. (Job 38:8-9)
By the 4th "day" things were ready for sentient creatures to appear....and finally man. So with each 'increment' of creation, preparation was made for what came next. By the time sentient creatures arrived on the scene there was already habitats, food, water and air ready for them. All they had to do was reproduce their kind to replace the ones that died naturally. The natural cycle of life and death in the animal kingdom ensured continued life for many other creatures.
The Bible's account makes plenty of room for an old earth and a very long creative process. It just depends on how you interpret the word "yohm" (day) It is clear that it doesn't just mean a 24 hour period because included in the Genesis account (chapter 2:4) which says...."This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." The whole creative process is spoken of as taking place in one "day".
By the time of man's appearance, many creatures (like the dinosaurs) had become extinct, perhaps because they had served a purpose for a time and were no longer needed? God knows but he did not tell us all the details. I am sure he will one day.
Genesis 1 stated that the Earth (1:1-2) is older than the sun and stars (1:14-19).
That itself demonstrated the author have no real understanding of astronomy or of Earth science.
There are tens of billions of stars much older than the Sun.
Our Sun...in fact our entire Solar System were formed from older nearby supernovas, that predated the Earth.
The fact that Andromeda Galaxy and Triangulum Galaxy are the most distant objects that we can see in the night sky without the telescope So what we see right now, we are actually looking what these two galaxies 2 million years ago and 3 million years ago, respectively, in the past. That’s indication that stars existed long before Adam, long before even the first Homo sapiens.
Everything else in your post, indicate you have no evidences, just some apologetic excuses and warped interpretations of the Genesis.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
There's overwhelming evidence for an old Earth and history of people dating back thousands of years before the Biblical genealogical account of 77 generations from Christ to Adam.
Evidence against a recent creation - RationalWiki
Evidence against a recent creation - RationalWiki
we-live-now
Active Member
Gen 1:14 doesn't even mention the Sun. It mentions "luminary (bright) bodies" (the stars). The sun doesn't appear until Gen 15:12.
How does science prove this exactly?
I just love the way science makes such confident statements about things that they can never really confirm. Have you been outside of the Milky Way lately? What planets have the scientists visited in our vast galaxy?
How does science categorically state the age of all the celestial bodies.....been there too eh?
You are free to believe whatever you wish gnostic. But methinks you trust the wrong people way too much. You may think the same of me......
Neither of us can prove that we are right.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The nebular hypothesis tells us how the Solar System formed and we can date it by dating meteorites. Radiometric dating gives us the date when those meteorites formed.
What makes you think that they cannot confirm that? Your question is rather rude and pointless.
Would you learn if people tried to help you?
You are free to believe whatever you wish gnostic. But methinks you trust the wrong people way too much. You may think the same of me......
I think that you are angry because all that you have is a book of myths so you have to denigrate the work of others. Amazingly enough this is not a very Christian way to behave.
siti
Well-Known Member
Oh dear! Yet another let's all display our profound ignorance of both science and scripture thread!
Anyway, here's a different POV - the earth is like me - middle aged! It is several billion years old and will be around for several more billion years to come. That's also how we know it is round - everything middle aged is round - including me I'm afraid!
Anyway, here's a different POV - the earth is like me - middle aged! It is several billion years old and will be around for several more billion years to come. That's also how we know it is round - everything middle aged is round - including me I'm afraid!
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
siti
Well-Known Member
Absolutely - I looked in the mirror and I seem to be even rounder today than I was yesterday...there's no way anything can be more than 50 years old and not be round.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I am not the spring chicken I used to be, but I am not exactly "round". Just earlier tonight I did twelve "Superman Push-ups". To do that one lies flat on the floor on and with just the toes and the palms of your hand on the floor lift your body off of the floor. Think of an extremely long plank. I tried so more later and could only do two. It sort of rips up your abs just a tad.
siti
Well-Known Member
I had to give you a frubal winner thingy for that! To be honest, I'm not in bad nick for my age either - but I am fighting a losing battle in the middle bit - my six pack has definitely morphed into an economy pack in the last few years. I can't do superman push ups though - kudos for that! I do exercise most days and fairly intensively at that - but the belly just keeps on growing anyway!