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Oklahoma -- where abortion is now illegal even BEFORE you are pregnant!

Will Oklahoma hold God responsible for failure to implant?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Oklahoma politicians are bonkers

    Votes: 17 89.5%

  • Total voters
    19

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What he also seems to say is that if God lets miscarriage happen, we should approve abortions.
You know, I could tell you this a million times, and you still won't get it, because it doesn't fit your agenda.

I do not APPROVE abortions. I don't like abortions. I have said so before, I will say so again -- so finally, stop telling lies about me.

I am prepared to ACCEPT a woman's choice to abort, if that is her wish. That is all.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok... it just didn't seem like that was his point. Not sure how you get from miscarriages to punishing God (in which he doesn't believe in)

It also seemed like he was upset that life began at conception as a concept.

Well in fairness there is a vast religious disagreement with such a premise. I know honest to god (god fearing) Christians who don’t subscribe to such a philosophy. Now their understanding of the Bible, you’ll have to take it up with them. Because I don’t have anything to do with that, honestly
Sorry
I also know that Judaism doesn’t always agree that life begins at conception. Even orthodox beliefs/traditions at that

I know you didn't have his perspective but for his sake let me take a stab at it for his sake.

1) We pump our bodies with dye's chemicals, alcohol, anti-abortion pills (which as far as I know may have latent properties for all I know), wrong foods, abortions, drugs, weed and then say "God, why do you let so many miscarriages?

To be fair, that’s more of an American thing (and one found in many third world countries. Sorry, not sorry.)
My country actually has much stricter food safety measures than the US and indeed even our fast food has higher safety standards. Not even kidding
I don’t say this to demean or insult Americans, it’s just well known that the US has some of the worst food safety standards among all the world leaders and indeed of all first world nations. Your small serving of fries is literally everyone else’s medium serving. Just as an example
So you guys might stuff yourselves with nothing but chemicals and awful crap. The rest of the world actually don’t. We have higher safety standards. That’s just reality
Sorry
Now I do agree with you that people stuff themselves full of such toxicity and crap. And that’s on them, not God.

But since God is presumably responsible for creating reality, He can’t escape all blame in that either. At least not entirely. According to the OP as I understand it.
Again he’s free to correct me if I’m wrong

2) The proposal is that God should control every aspect of life and living. Have you seen what happens to a child if you try to control every aspect of living? You have a revolt on you hands :) No, God gave the Earth to man (in our faith) and we are in charge.
Being omniscient kind of heavily implies that said entity literally controls all aspects of life. That’s not me making that claim. It’s a claim that religious folks make all the time. So the OP seems to be merely exploring the implications of such a claim. Don’t blame the OP for religious interpretations.
:shrug:
Again not my argument to be clear

3) Every child still grows in Heaven. (of course he doesn't believe in a Heaven)

I appreciate the sentiment.
Don’t necessarily agree but it’s nice nonetheless :)

What he also seems to say is that if God lets miscarriage happen, we should approve abortions. (I could be wrong in what he is implying -- if he is implying). Couldn't we also say, "If a baby isn't a baby in the womb, (perish the thought), it is just a piece of meat to put some seasoning on it? (Assuming he eats meat)
I don’t think the OP quite makes that comparison. But sure, I do think the OP is saying that if miscarriages occur, then we should approve of abortions. Again this is not my argument.

For me personally, I actually do believe that abortion is an immoral thing to do (except for rape and life threatening scenarios. Those get a “pass” as far as I’m concerned.)
I believe that abortion does indeed terminate a life. Religiously speaking anyway. It is a tragedy in my eyes. Morally speaking

I’m still vehemently pro choice.
Sorry. What can I say?
I’ve seen the consequences of outlawing abortion. It only adds to death overall. That’s just reality.
Always has been.
Look at Ireland, look at society pre abortion being legal. People have always sought abortions, but having it be legal means that doctors as opposed to coat hangers are sought after. And I would much rather folks go to qualified medical professionals than seek advice from people in a back alley.
Don’t know about you, but I want to mitigate death as much as humanly possible. I don’t want mothers, wives, sisters, daughters dying due to botched abortions. Which was an actual reality not too long ago.
And sorry if it sucks but in all metrics I can see, legal abortion does reduce such deaths overall. So I have no choice but to support it’s legalisation. It’s unfortunate as far as I can see. But I can’t in good faith support measures that kill women. And outlawing abortion always leads to the death of said women. That’s just reality.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It's that if life does begin at conception then there is never anyway humans can ever out abort Jehovah, as he apparently designed pregnancy to fail most of the time (and not just with humans...every great white shark in the ocean, for example, ate its siblings while still in the womb). So why not charge Jehovah with being a massive provider of spontaneous abortion?
Amd if all the kids go to Heaven, why even oppose abortion at all? Wouldn't it be a great mercy to guarantee they go there without risk of falling away and never know the ****storm that is life?

Yeah, if newborn babies are inconnect and will go to Heaven, we should kill them all as we would save some and the rest would go to Heaven anyway.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
If God truly does see all pregnancies as the potential for life, why does He allow for so many miscarriages?
I mean He is omniscient after all. He is in control of all things, is He not?
Basically it boils down to the old cliche of
“If God was truly against abortion, why does He allow for so many miscarriages?”
Maybe this is a moving in mysterious ways thing?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's effing Oklahoma. Everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line seem to have lost their mind.
We have a Trump backed candidate here in MI
(Jacky Eubanks) who wants birth control made
illegal. And it appears she'd make sex illegal
outside of marriage between a man & a woman.
God tells her it must be so.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
We have a Trump backed candidate here in MI
(Jacky Eubanks) who wants birth control made
illegal. And it appears she'd make sex illegal
outside of marriage between a man & a woman.
God tells her it must be so.
Looks like she wants to make Michigan more gay than San Francisco. :joycat:
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
We have a Trump backed candidate here in MI
(Jacky Eubanks) who wants birth control made
illegal. And it appears she'd make sex illegal
outside of marriage between a man & a woman.
God tells her it must be so.
wow, I looked her up. She is a religious extremest that does not believe in freedom of religion.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
We have a Trump backed candidate here in MI
(Jacky Eubanks) who wants birth control made
illegal. And it appears she'd make sex illegal
outside of marriage between a man & a woman.
God tells her it must be so.

How long until some decide that the problem is women wearing provocative clothing leading to a requirement that all women dress like Amish?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Oklahoma has just passed a law that defines "human life" as anything from the moment of fertilization.

But pregnancy requires implantation. Medical science knows well that many, many fertilized eggs do not successfully implant, and are thus flushed, and no pregnancy results.

Excellent.

So let argue that this from a different angle here. Let's say that technology or medicine improves to where the process of implantation is pretty much always flawlessly successful, fetuses always develop successfully, and birth is never dangerous, and always successful. So fertility and birth is always successful, due to some kind of science. So then, does the bill force the amish to adapt to this modern technology? Or are they protected by the 1st amendment?

Furthermore, if they are already ways to enhance implantation, and the parent does not use those ways, and thus the fertilized egg dies, is there a responsibility parameter that was broken there?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
So let argue that this from a different angle here. Let's say that technology or medicine improves to where the process of implantation is pretty much always flawlessly successful, fetuses always develop successfully, and birth is never dangerous, and always successful. So fertility and birth is always successful, due to some kind of science. So then, does the bill force the amish to adapt to this modern technology? Or are they protected by the 1st amendment?

Furthermore, if they are already ways to enhance implantation, and the parent does not use those ways, and thus the fertilized egg dies, is there a responsibility parameter that was broken there?
A person always has the right to refuse a medical procedure--they must agree to the procedure. Even corpses have the right to not have their organs harvested unless they consented to it while they were alive.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
So let argue that this from a different angle here. Let's say that technology or medicine improves to where the process of implantation is pretty much always flawlessly successful, fetuses always develop successfully, and birth is never dangerous, and always successful. So fertility and birth is always successful, due to some kind of science. So then, does the bill force the amish to adapt to this modern technology? Or are they protected by the 1st amendment?

Furthermore, if they are already ways to enhance implantation, and the parent does not use those ways, and thus the fertilized egg dies, is there a responsibility parameter that was broken there?
No, I posted this once. But the actual bill says terminate pregnancy not fertilization. So this thread is mostly arguing a strawman.

"Abortion" means the act of using, prescribing,
administering, procuring, or selling of any instrument, medicine,
drug, or any other substance, device, or means with the purpose to
terminate the pregnancy of a woman, with knowledge that the
termination by any of those means will with reasonable likelihood
cause the death of an unborn child. It does not include the use,
prescription, administration, procuring, or selling of Plan B,
morning-after pills, or any other type of contraception or emergency
contraception.


It defines abortion as ending a pregnancy. The bill allows for contraception, even plan b pills.

Oklahoma HB4327 | 2022 | Regular Session
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It's that if life does begin at conception then there is never anyway humans can ever out abort Jehovah, as he apparently designed pregnancy to fail most of the time (and not just with humans...every great white shark in the ocean, for example, ate its siblings while still in the womb). So why not charge Jehovah with being a massive provider of spontaneous abortion?
Amd if all the kids go to Heaven, why even oppose abortion at all? Wouldn't it be a great mercy to guarantee they go there without risk of falling away and never know the ****storm that is life?
You just closed your eyes to everything I said. But I understand.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, now, you should take your argument to an Oklahoma Court. Let us know how that works out. How do you plan on serving your summons on the Almighty?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How long until some decide that the problem is women wearing provocative clothing leading to a requirement that all women dress like Amish?
Women will still be able to wear typical western
dress...in the privacy of their male guardians abode.
 
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