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Okay Creationists, Explain These!

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I wrote this stuff years ago, so I'm just going to throw it in this thread for anyone who's interested....

Regarding the nature of the atavism itself...

Atavisms are a concept similar to vestigial structures. But atavisms take it a few steps further. Atavisms are the reappearance of a characteristic not present in the parents or even in recent evolutionary relatives. IOW, let's say you are an amphibian that evolved from a species of fish that existed millions of years ago. An atavistic structure would be if a recent amphibian individual were born with pelvic fins like those of its piscine ancestor.

Similarly, if humans share an evolutionary past with other primates, the types of atavistic structures we have should reflect this evolutionary past. More specifically, our evolutionary past allows us to predict the types of atavistic structures in humans we should find and shouldn't find. We shouldn't see a baby born with fully functional wings for example.

So, is this what we see?

Of course. The most famous example of atavisms in humans is the appearance of fully functional tails (also known as "coccygeal process," "coccygeal projection," "caudal appendage," and "vestigial tail"). The existence of these true tails are extremely well documented in the medical literature, with over 100 published examples.

Keep in mind, these are REAL tails, complete with adipose and connective tissue, central bundles of striated muscle, blood vessels, nerve fibres, nerve ganglion cells, and specialized pressure sensing nerve organs. They are covered by normal skin, complete with hair follicles, sweat glands, and sebaceous glands. And guess what else? These things actually work! They contract and move just like regular tails we see in other primates!!​

How evolutionary theory explains the genetic basis for the atavistic tail.....

If humans share a common ancestor with other primates, we would expect to see this reflected in our ontological development. The development of a human adult and an ape adult from an embryo are modifications of the developmental processes of our shared common ancestor. In other words, the common ancestor that humans share with other primates went through a certain process in its embryological development. Because we and other primates have descended from this ancestor, all primates (ourselves included) should have inherited components of this process. Thus a basic prediction of our shared ancestry is that our ontological development should be very similar to that of other primates.

So, is this what we see?

A great example is how all primates have a tail at 4-5 weeks of gestation. At this stage there are 10-12 developing tail vertebrae that extend beyond the anus and legs, and are greater than 10% of the length of the whole embryo. The tail is made up of many complex tissues including a spinal cord, a notochord, a mesenchyme, and a tail gut. In the monkeys, this goes on to form the various types of tails present in adult monkeys.

But as we know, the great apes (including humans) do not have tails. In the great apes, the 6-12 vertebrae undergo "cell death" and disappear, and the 5th and 4th vertebrae are reduced. It has been shown that regulation of a single gene (Wnt-3a gene if you need to know) is the mechanism behind this curious process (thus the cases of the atavistic tails I mentioned earlier are likely due to a mutation in this gene). I say "curious process" because this data leads to the obvious question: Why develop a tail as an embryo that you're not going to have as an adult?

This is a very good example of how evolutionary common descent of all primates provides a very good explanation for the data. Without an understanding of common descent, the ontological development and loss of a tail as an embryo in all apes would be very strange and difficult to explain. But when we view this data in light of common ancestry, it makes perfect sense. At one time, all primates had tails as embryos that went on to develop into adult tails. But sometime after the great ape line split off, a common ancestor to all apes developed a mutation that resulted in the embryonic degeneration of the tail, and that mutation and trait was inherited by all its descendants, humans included.​
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I think we know who the mushrooms are.....
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Skwim

Veteran Member
You miss the point here:
II Peter 2:12:
But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,​
God never intended for animals to have unending life if given food and water. Thus in his creation, in animals, we see all the things that we struggle with in our imperfection.
Err, if you took the time to read the chapter from the beginning you'd know that the "animals" it refers to aren't non-human animals, but prophets.

II Peter 2:1 (Darby)
But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;

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Sapiens

Polymathematician
You miss the point here:
II Peter 2:12:
But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,​
God never intended for animals to have unending life if given food and water. Thus in his creation, in animals, we see all the things that we struggle with in our imperfection.

Again, our difference in paradigm dis-permits any intelligent dialogue. Your beliefs of Abiogenesis and Evolution are just as giggle inducing to me as our beliefs are to you. (He he, he thinks life originated in a bottle of mineral water. Probably made by Coca Cola. :D:D:D:D)

The forth and back discussions on these matters - produce nothing useful at all, but questions tend to want answers. For my sake, you may believe that your grandmother was a toad for all I care. At least, it is a higher life-form than the microbes that lived in the mud you seem to claim as ancestors.
That's where you are so very, very, wrong. The back and forth produces something very useful, it exposes to everyone the fact that the only evidence you can gin up is circular reasoning based upon a book of rather dubious provenance.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's where you are so very, very, wrong. The back and forth produces something very useful, it exposes to everyone the fact that the only evidence you can gin up is circular reasoning based upon a book of rather dubious provenance.

So, that's it? The only back and forth coming from your evidence is circular reasoning based on the findings of your own 'gods' whose evidence is somewhat teetering on pure assumption about things that happened so long ago that there is no reliable way to interpret it.....unless you want to support an unproven theory over what is right under our collective noses.

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Here we have the monotremes.....two very unusual animals unique to Australia and very difficult subjects for evolutionists to explain.....imagine! egg laying mammals! One an aquatic creature and the other an ant-eating land dweller. :eek:

More+Unusual+Facts+%E2%80%A6.jpg

(Google pics)

I just love the way science assumes relationship with these two distinctly different creatures just because they share some traits in common...like laying eggs and suckling their young. They are nothing alike.....not even a vague resemblance.

Care to explain that one for us Sapiens?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Err, if you took the time to read the chapter from the beginning you'd know that the "animals" it refers to aren't non-human animals, but prophets.

II Peter 2:1 (Darby)
But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;

.
I have to shake my head here in frustration. I sit and wonder if you understand English at all.
II Peter 2:
9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial, and to keep the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished;
10 and specially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise lordship. Bold are they , self-willed; they do not fear speaking injuriously of dignities: 11 when angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring against them, before the Lord, an injurious charge. 12 But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,

Here Peter takes the ungodly, "those who walk after the flesh" and compares them to "natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed."

So, try to understand what is so clearly said, that animals ... are made to be caught and destroyed. And, therefore, the ungodly, those who walk after the flesh, are like these animals - namely to be destroyed.

Scripture even tells us what is going to happen, how these animal like people are going to be destroyed in the end:
Jeremiah 16:16 16 “‘Here I am sending for many fishers, (my insert: the preaching of the gospel)’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and they will certainly fish for them; and afterward I shall send for many hunters, (my insert: angels shall hunt these animal like people and kill them) and they will certainly hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and out of the clefts of the crags.
Try at least to use rational arguments. ;)
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
based upon a book of rather dubious provenance
If you don't want to discuss things with a Bible believer, why are you?
You really think that evolutionists and abiogenesis believers come across as believing in anything substantial at all!

Believe what you will. It is no water off my back.:)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
So, that's it? The only back and forth coming from your evidence is circular reasoning based on the findings of your own 'gods' whose evidence is somewhat teetering on pure assumption about things that happened so long ago that there is no reliable way to interpret it.....unless you want to support an unproven theory over what is right under our collective noses.

images
images


Here we have the monotremes.....two very unusual animals unique to Australia and very difficult subjects for evolutionists to explain.....imagine! egg laying mammals! One an aquatic creature and the other an ant-eating land dweller. :eek:

More+Unusual+Facts+%E2%80%A6.jpg

(Google pics)

I just love the way science assumes relationship with these two distinctly different creatures just because they share some traits in common...like laying eggs and suckling their young. They are nothing alike.....not even a vague resemblance.

Care to explain that one for us Sapiens?
You're making my case for me. External appearance may be different (at least between the platypus and the several species of echidna). The Monotremes lay eggs and feature shared structural differences in their brains, jaws, digestive and reproductive tracts as well as other body parts that are quite dissimilar to "normal" mammals. This is because monotremes and "normal" mammals diverged in the Triassic, permitting plenty of time for the evolution of differences within the monotremes as well as between the monotremes and other mammals. Monotremes retained characteristics that are quite distinctive and that demonstrate their common lineage.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
If you don't want to discuss things with a Bible believer, why are you?
You really think that evolutionists and abiogenesis believers come across as believing in anything substantial at all!

Believe what you will. It is no water off my back.:)
I am happy to discuss things with a Bible believer.

Evolutionists and abiogenesis advocates have rational substantial evidence to support their claims, bible believers have nothing more than faith supported by circular reasoning, arguments from incredulity, arguments from ignorance, god of the gaps and a major problem with infinite regression.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You're making my case for me. External appearance may be different (at least between the platypus and the several species of echidna). The Monotremes lay eggs and feature shared structural differences in their brains, jaws, digestive and reproductive tracts as well as other body parts that are quite dissimilar to "normal" mammals. This is because monotremes and "normal" mammals diverged in the Triassic, permitting plenty of time for the evolution of differences within the monotremes as well as between the monotremes and other mammals. Monotremes retained characteristics that are quite distinctive and that demonstrate their common lineage.

Who said? o_O

Can we have substantiation for that statement, made as though it were absolute truth?.....but it cannot rely on supposition, faith or belief...otherwise you are in no better position to make a statement like that than we are. :)
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
Facts may be interpreted differently depending perspective and paradigm.

I have more than once put facts from archaeology out here for atheists to inspect. In all cases, the atheist paradigm makes atheists reject the facts.
There is another fact that is also undeniable in most cases, and that is that discussions between creationists and atheists lead nowhere and usually is a waste of time.

based upon a book of rather dubious provenance.
When you so eloquently - not - begin by insulting our beliefs, do you really expect this attitude not to be mirrored back to you! :p:p Your beliefs are beyond the pale - against all rational thought and expression. Claiming that complex things make themselves - is so far out that they don't even deserve a response. If it was a parent and child discussion, the child would have to be about 3 to come up with this.

I was a budding atheists when a small child. My parents had just come home from shopping, and I had broken something. Being very small, when asked who done it, I said in best atheist fashion, "It did it itself" ! Somehow they didn't believe me, but of course, you would have believed it. :D

You have the right to not believe as you do; but, why even take up the mantle here, if that is all you can contribute to the matter. In this question, Bible believers are asked a reason why! How do Bible believers answer! Naturally, with Bible reasons. Get it?! o_O

So, quoting Shakespeare with a twist, 'To answer, or not to answer' - is the question.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I have to shake my head here in frustration. I sit and wonder if you understand English at all.
Sorry, but I was simply tying to make sense of your post. To find some kind of relevancy to it

Sapiens asked:

"why are all of the same harmful mutations seen in poor animals that had nothing to do with your alleged fall?"​

And you replied with.

II Peter 2:12:
But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,
In essence; harmful mutations in animals occur because:

animals were "made to be caught and destroyed," and because they spoke harmful things (really, talking animals??) about things they were ignorant of.​

That is your reasoning? Truly?

.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
In essence; harmful mutations in animals occur because:

animals were "made to be caught and destroyed," and because they spoke harmful things (really, talking animals??) about things they were ignorant of.
That is your reasoning? Truly?
The earth is a sex-machine; life on earth has to be 'born,' live and procreate, and die. It matters not if the life being spoken of is plant or animal in most cases, though some plant life and microbial life does not have an off switch, but only dies if it is killed. In that sense, some microbial life has eternal life since it keeps on dividing and some of the copies always shall exist unless the earth is killed off itself.

All higher forms of life followes this cycle of being 'born', living and procreating, and dying.

Thus, there has to be a mechanism, in this case many such mechanisms, for killing the unit so as to make place for new ones. This killing is built in to the animals in various forms, illness -- cancer, and whatnot - being caught and eaten by something else. In the end, the units are destroyed.

This should adequately answer why God would want harmful things to happen to animals, plants, life in general on the planet. The wheels of the ecosystems must turn.

Having said this, I do not understand why this point should be so elusive to grasp.
and because they spoke harmful things (really, talking animals??)
Now again, I fear for you, and for your understanding of what was said. Perhaps you read things too quickly without taking time to meditate on what was said.

Please examine the quote one more. It is not the animals that speak here, but 'these' the people who are compared to animals:
II Peter 2:
9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial, and to keep the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished;
10 and specially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise lordship. Bold are they , self-willed; they do not fear speaking injuriously of dignities: 11 when angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring against them, before the Lord, an injurious charge. 12 But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,
Here is a very different translation, quite modern. Perhaps its English might help you:
These people, like irrational animals, are mere creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. They insult what they don't understand, and like animals they, too, will be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as punishment for their wrongdoing. They take pleasure in wild parties in broad daylight. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceitful pleasures while they eat with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they cannot get enough of sin. They seduce unsteady souls and have had their hearts expertly trained in greed. They are doomed to a curse.

I don't like that last translation much, but if it helps you understand what is said .. .

I feel it mighty strange that I have to spell it out like this. Keep studying, even English. We all need it.:):)

 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
The earth is a sex-machine; life on earth has to be 'born,' live and procreate, and die. It matters not if the life being spoken of is plant or animal in most cases, though some plant life and microbial life does not have an off switch, but only dies if it is killed. In that sense, some microbial life has eternal life since it keeps on dividing and some of the copies always shall exist unless the earth is killed off itself.

All higher forms of life followes this cycle of being 'born', living and procreating, and dying.

Thus, there has to be a mechanism, in this case many such mechanisms, for killing the unit so as to make place for new ones. This killing is built in to the animals in various forms, illness -- cancer, and whatnot - being caught and eaten by something else. In the end, the units are destroyed.

This should adequately answer why God would want harmful things to happen to animals, plants, life in general on the planet. The wheels of the ecosystems must turn.

Having said this, I do not understand why this point should be so elusive to grasp.
So, because God wanted harmful things to happen to animals, plants, life in general on the planet he invested a few, an extremely tiny fraction of them, with harmful mutations? Because what, making sure they were stillborn was too much trouble? Or that lowering the fertility rate never occurred to him? Gotta say, yours is one of the most entertaining bits of reasoning I've read in quite awhile. :thumbsup:

Thanks

.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
So, because God wanted harmful things to happen to animals, plants, life in general on the planet he invested a few, an extremely tiny fraction of them, with harmful mutations? Because what, making sure they were stillborn was too much trouble? Or that lowering the fertility rate never occurred to him? Gotta say, yours is one of the most entertaining bits of reasoning I've read in quite awhile. :thumbsup:

Thanks

.
You're welcome. Try to entertain when possible. Otherwise, I would be crying too much. :D:D
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Those people must be evolving into intelligent apes. I knew it, the planet of the apes is inevitable.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Who said? o_O
I did. I am an expert in that area, if you insist on additional references I'd suggest that you consult Romer's Vertebrate Paleontology, old but still a good source.
Can we have substantiation for that statement, made as though it were absolute truth?.....but it cannot rely on supposition, faith or belief...otherwise you are in no better position to make a statement like that than we are. :)
Go read Romer.
Facts may be interpreted differently depending perspective and paradigm.
Yup, but all the experts are with me.
I have more than once put facts from archaeology out here for atheists to inspect. In all cases, the atheist paradigm makes atheists reject the facts.
You need to point out where, I can not find your comments. I suspect that your archeology is as suspect as your biology.
There is another fact that is also undeniable in most cases, and that is that discussions between creationists and atheists lead nowhere and usually is a waste of time.
... and that other fact is?
When you so eloquently - not - begin by insulting our beliefs, do you really expect this attitude not to be mirrored back to you! :p:p
Truth hurts, eh? Sorry to insult your beliefs, but facts are facts and you do no argue your case very well.
Your beliefs are beyond the pale - against all rational thought and expression.
I have no beliefs. I understand probabilities however, tightly based on something your beliefs lack, rational thought and, most of all, real evidence.
Claiming that complex things make themselves - is so far out that they don't even deserve a response. If it was a parent and child discussion, the child would have to be about 3Y to come up with this.
That'd be rather a bright 3 year old ... to understand Malthus, Darwin, ESS, the ToE, Natural Selection, gene duplication, genomics, etc.
I was a budding atheists when a small child. My parents had just come home from shopping, and I had broken something. Being very small, when asked who done it, I said in best atheist fashion, "It did it itself" ! Somehow they didn't believe me, but of course, you would have believed it. :D
I know there should be some point to this homespun piece of cornpone, but I really can't see what it is.
You have the right to not believe as you do; but, why even take up the mantle here, if that is all you can contribute to the matter. In this question, Bible believers are asked a reason why! How do Bible believers answer! Naturally, with Bible reasons. Get it?! o_O
Yes, I get it. Can you say: "CIRCULAR REASONING?"
So, quoting Shakespeare with a twist, 'To answer, or not to answer' - is the question.
That should be: 'To answer, or not to answer' - THAT is the question. Bad archeology, bad biology and now inadequate English Lit. What can you do right besides quote scripture?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Yup, but all the experts are with me.
Nice!

I have God on my side. Let's see who wins! :D:D:D
I suspect that your archeology is as suspect as your biology.
You're mean. Instead you should have asked to be shown whatever I was referring to.

Anyway, I have had enough of atheists today to last me a while. Your attitude is not conducive to continue this thread. :cool:
 
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