Odd Mormon Beliefs.

[Thanda]

LDS theology states that in order to make it to the highest kingdom of heaven, you must pay a full and honest tithe.

You will not make it into heaven unless you keep the commandments. If you are a member of the LDS church you are commanded to pay tithing. So note that the "you" in this claim is church members - people who are not members of the church are not allowed to pay tithing never mind being expected to.

Everyone on earth now was a spirit in the pre-existence. When we die, our spirits are separated from our bodies and if we were good they go to “spirit paradise.” If we were bad they go to “spirit prison.” The spirit world exists as a place for spirits to go while awaiting the second coming.

They are not awaiting the second coming - they are awaiting their resurrection. Some will be resurrected at the second coming - others were and are resurrected before. And others still are resurrected after it.

The Book of Mormon is a book of LDS scripture that takes place during the same time as the Bible and takes place on the American continent. It follows the stories of two tribes who descended from the family of Lehi. After Jesus’ resurrection LDS people believe he visited the peoples of the Americas.

True

The LDS religion believes in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate beings. They also believe that God, Jesus and resurrected beings have bodies of “flesh and bone.

True

Any worthy male can be given the priesthood and is given specific duties. Black people were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. Females are not allowed to have the priesthood.

Not entirely true. Elijah Abel was ordained to the priesthood by Joseph Smith in the 1830s. Walker Lewis was also ordained during Joseph Smith's time. It is not clear why the church did not follow this precedent.

Summary of Important Dates
1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1958: All black Melanesians (Fijians) are given the priesthood (blacks in the Philippines even earlier)
1978: Revelation on Priesthood gives the priesthood to all worthy men regardless of color.​

There are three heavens: the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom. The Celestial is the highest, where God and the ones who followed his law reside. The Terrestrial is the middle, where people who followed the Law of Moses reside. The Telestial is the lowest, where the ones who followed carnal law reside.

Not quite certain what the "Law of Moses" thing is all about. That would mean we believe Isaiah, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, All the Apostles and Jesus himself didn't go to the highest heaven. That would indeed be odd.

For accurate information about this consult Doctrine and Covenants 76

You can be forgiven for any sin, save two. First, denying the Holy Spirit, and second, murder. Also, God is infinitely forgiving, until the second coming. After that, you end up where you end up, no matter what. There are no second chances. Period.

There are no second chances after the resurrection, not the second coming. Murder committed by someone with the light and knowledge of God cannot be forgiven.

God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

The second sentence is not official doctrine. The others are quite correct.

For reference see Moses 1.

Native Americans Are Descendants of Ancient Israelites.

I think this has been addressed.

God does not reside in heaven but actually resides on a planet located close to the star Kolob.

Wherever God resides is heaven, regardless of whether or not it is close to Kolob.

God took human form and had sexual intercourse with Mary in order to impregnate her with Christ.

This is not official LDS doctrine - not by a long way.

 

[Mycroft]

I thought pretty much all of Mormon belief (that which isn't hijacked from Christianity) was odd. Starting with the part where J. Smith finds golden tablets in a story very similar to his treasure hunting scam.

 

[Clear]

Hi Thanda :

Skwim said : God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

Thanda responded : The second sentence is not official doctrine. The others are quite correct.




Regarding personal versus official sourced models of theology in the LDS movement : Pre-creation existence of the spirits of man as a specific example.

Thanda, I am an adult convert to LDS theology. Early on, as a convert to restorational theology, it was still a bit disorienting distinguishing official doctrines from personal speculations offered to me by well-meaning members. To be fair, personal speculation is simply part of human nature, as the various religious theories forwarded in these forums demonstrates.

I had incorrectly assumed the LDS were “assembly-line” theists with narrow perceptions. However, since LDS (“mormons”) are encouraged to think for themselves in creating models of what God is doing, they themselves develop multiple models as to what is “official” doctrine.

For example, this specific concept of “pre-earth existence” of the spirits of man and what was going on during this time period was, historically, the most common early Judeo-Christian model described in early Judeo-Christian literature, (despite any criticism a restoration of this model might receive). The fact that the LDS have restored a parallel base model while most of modern Judeo-Christianity has adopted various other models was a wonderful discovery for me.

However, one problem with having more information regarding such specific historical principles is that, once either an individual (or an entire restorational movement) has more data, the wider the speculations can then be as to what the additional data means.

For example, religious movements that no longer have the early Judeo-Christian concept of a pre-creation existence, and no longer have any data as to what God or the spirits of man were doing in this time period, will then not be able to speculate in any accurate manner as to what was going on in this time period. Without the concept of pre-existence, or the base concept that something was happening during this time period, then speculations concerning this base concept will be scarce and more inaccurate.

What I found upon adopting restorational theology is that the LDS, (who have restored this base concept into their religious movement), are able to make multiple tentative models as to what was going on during this time period. Some models have become so popular and so widely discussed among the LDS, that they have taken on the mantle of “official doctrine” when, in fact, they are simply traditions that make sense to a large number of LDS. Also, often, the quotes of LDS leaders are often not contexted enough to tell when they themselves are speculating versus declaring “official doctrine”.

My point in saying this, is that, though the LDS have restored the base model of pre-creation existence” of the spirits of man and have restored the early Judeo-Christian base model of God planning for a material creation with the intent of furthering man’s development, I am not sure that all of the further specific speculations are “official doctrines”. Some appear to be “official speculations” (or speculations by “officials") mixed into official doctrines.

I hope this makes sense to you. The ability and even encouragement of the LDS by their teachers to consider and speculate and use their own minds and their own intelligence to create personal understanding is wonderful, but this also can create it’s own confusion as to what is “official” and what is not.

I hope you understand this is not a criticism, but I think all individuals, whether LDS or not, must use the data and intelligence they are given to create tentative models as to the existence of God; what his purposes and plans for mankind are; and what mankinds’ role in coming to a happy and peaceful existence is. The specific re-adoption and restoration by the LDS of the early Judeo-Christian model of Pre-creation existence of spirits is a restored principle that goes a long way in creating coherent and rational models of what God is doing.

I hope your journey is good Thanda

Clear
δρτζφυω

 

[Skwim]

You will not make it into heaven unless you keep the commandments. If you are a member of the LDS church you are commanded to pay tithing. So note that the "you" in this claim is church members - people who are not members of the church are not allowed to pay tithing never mind being expected to.



They are not awaiting the second coming - they are awaiting their resurrection. Some will be resurrected at the second coming - others were and are resurrected before. And others still are resurrected after it.



True



True



Not entirely true. Elijah Abel was ordained to the priesthood by Joseph Smith in the 1830s. Walker Lewis was also ordained during Joseph Smith's time. It is not clear why the church did not follow this precedent.

Summary of Important Dates
1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1958: All black Melanesians (Fijians) are given the priesthood (blacks in the Philippines even earlier)
1978: Revelation on Priesthood gives the priesthood to all worthy men regardless of color.​

Not quite certain what the "Law of Moses" thing is all about. That would mean we believe Isaiah, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, All the Apostles and Jesus himself didn't go to the highest heaven. That would indeed be odd.

For accurate information about this consult Doctrine and Covenants 76



There are no second chances after the resurrection, not the second coming. Murder committed by someone with the light and knowledge of God cannot be forgiven.



The second sentence is not official doctrine. The others are quite correct.

For reference see Moses 1.



I think this has been addressed.



Wherever God resides is heaven, regardless of whether or not it is close to Kolob.



This is not official LDS doctrine - not by a long way.

Thanda, thank you for your to-the-point, non-argumentative, and informative corrections. They're greatly appreciated.

 

[Katzpur]

Clear,

I'm not sure, but I think you may be mixing Thana and Thanda up.

Katz

 

[Katzpur]

Well I was hoping you wouldn't mind explaining to me the Mormon belief of apotheosis. I find it hard to reconcile that with what the bible teaches about humans and seems to contradict the meaning of Jesus's sacrifice.

Hi, Thana. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm going to answer this question in this post. I'll get back to you tomorrow morning with answers to your other questions.

The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "gds." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy.

To get us started, I'd like to clear up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

If nothing else in this post makes sense to you, at least know that.

We believe, as you may know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” Even today, a similar doctrine is taught in some of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, who is much loved and admired by Christians of all denominations and of no denomination, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity." Here's how he put it:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

So, the "Mormons" really didn't come up with this doctrine. We only restored that which had been lost for many, many years.

 

[Skwim]

Clear,

I'm not sure, but I think you may be mixing Thana and Thanda up.

Katz

I'm speaking about post #21

 

[Thanda]

Hi Thanda :

Skwim said : God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

Thanda responded : The second sentence is not official doctrine. The others are quite correct.




Regarding personal versus official sourced models of theology in the LDS movement : Pre-creation existence of the spirits of man as a specific example.

Thanda, I am an adult convert to LDS theology. Early on, as a convert to restorational theology, it was still a bit disorienting distinguishing official doctrines from personal speculations offered to me by well-meaning members. To be fair, personal speculation is simply part of human nature, as the various religious theories forwarded in these forums demonstrates.

I had incorrectly assumed the LDS were “assembly-line” theists with narrow perceptions. However, since LDS (“mormons”) are encouraged to think for themselves in creating models of what God is doing, they themselves develop multiple models as to what is “official” doctrine.

For example, this specific concept of “pre-earth existence” of the spirits of man and what was going on during this time period was, historically, the most common early Judeo-Christian model described in early Judeo-Christian literature, (despite any criticism a restoration of this model might receive). The fact that the LDS have restored a parallel base model while most of modern Judeo-Christianity has adopted various other models was a wonderful discovery for me.

However, one problem with having more information regarding such specific historical principles is that, once either an individual (or an entire restorational movement) has more data, the wider the speculations can then be as to what the additional data means.

For example, religious movements that no longer have the early Judeo-Christian concept of a pre-creation existence, and no longer have any data as to what God or the spirits of man were doing in this time period, will then not be able to speculate in any accurate manner as to what was going on in this time period. Without the concept of pre-existence, or the base concept that something was happening during this time period, then speculations concerning this base concept will be scarce and more inaccurate.

What I found upon adopting restorational theology is that the LDS, (who have restored this base concept into their religious movement), are able to make multiple tentative models as to what was going on during this time period. Some models have become so popular and so widely discussed among the LDS, that they have taken on the mantle of “official doctrine” when, in fact, they are simply traditions that make sense to a large number of LDS. Also, often, the quotes of LDS leaders are often not contexted enough to tell when they themselves are speculating versus declaring “official doctrine”.

My point in saying this, is that, though the LDS have restored the base model of pre-creation existence” of the spirits of man and have restored the early Judeo-Christian base model of God planning for a material creation with the intent of furthering man’s development, I am not sure that all of the further specific speculations are “official doctrines”. Some appear to be “official speculations” (or speculations by “officials") mixed into official doctrines.

I hope this makes sense to you. The ability and even encouragement of the LDS by their teachers to consider and speculate and use their own minds and their own intelligence to create personal understanding is wonderful, but this also can create it’s own confusion as to what is “official” and what is not.

I hope you understand this is not a criticism, but I think all individuals, whether LDS or not, must use the data and intelligence they are given to create tentative models as to the existence of God; what his purposes and plans for mankind are; and what mankinds’ role in coming to a happy and peaceful existence is. The specific re-adoption and restoration by the LDS of the early Judeo-Christian model of Pre-creation existence of spirits is a restored principle that goes a long way in creating coherent and rational models of what God is doing.

I hope your journey is good Thanda

Clear
δρτζφυω

I fully understand. And I do like this term - "Official Speculation". For that is what it is. Bruce R McConkie is probably one of our most famous "Official Speculators"

But that said, when dealing with non-members especially, I it is important to make very clear what is not official church doctrine. Especially since later on the church may decide to weigh in on a doctrine and clarify it - and if people always understood the doctrine to be official, then any change may appear to be a change of doctrine.

 

[Clear]

Hi Thanda: After seeing your response, I then realized I had misunderstood your original response. It was the strange caricurature of multiple "universes" that was my main issue as well.

I apologize that I misunderstood that we actually agreed on this point. While early texts such as thanksgiving psalms are full of references to those who are "god-like", the multiple "universe" was another silly and a lazy caricature of LDS doctrine and such things were part of what I was referring to when I meant that the links were good examples of how subtle, but important dyscontexting of someone elses religion is done.

thanks

Clear

 

[Quintessence]

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