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Objective truth

PureX

Veteran Member
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

Note I didn't define "how close" they are, I said "closer".
As someone who is much closer to 70 than to 20, the most objective truth I possess is that I actually know almost nothing. I think I know lots of things, and I think I am justified in thinking so. But the longer I live, the more I am shown how fallible all that thinking really is. It worries me all these young'uns spouting off endlessly about how they think science is figuring it all out. and how logic and reason will provide the truth, ... because I know what BS that all it. And you can't tell them anything because they think they know it all, already. Just like no one could tell me anything when I was young.
 
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Not sure objective truth exists for humans beyond certain basic empirical realities.

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

They are probably closer to what works in practice, but what works in practice and objective truth are not one and the same.
 

tigrers2019

Member
One can get closer to objective truth if they manage their pride and have it chipped away due to circumstances and develop a zest for truth.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

Note I didn't define "how close" they are, I said "closer".

Objective truth requires we go back and question all that we have learned, in all areas of life, to make sure we are not carrying subjective baggage; premises, which can cause one not to be able to be find objective truth.

Advancing age sort of does this, since it brings one in contact with hard reality, where our systematic biases are testing, again and again. This testing allows one to come to terms with our foundational biases, that can result in the wrong perceptions, needed for objectivity; wisdom of age.

This state of wisdom can also be speeded up by the youth. An analogy is going to therapy to overcome a neurosis. The neurosis will create a certain bias in terms of coloring our perception of reality. This bias may be prejudice or anxiety, to name a few. This coloring can become an accepted premise, since it appears each day. The person may then use sound reasoning, beginning with these false but reoccurring premises, thereby leading them away from objectivity; neurosis.

Part of the therapy is to go back in time and see where this all began. Then you change or preprogram the past, so the premise or lens of objective perception, is clarified. Age and experience allows more opportunity to test foundation premises; subjective bias, so one can reach a place of objective health. Age does not guarantee anything, but it does improve the odds, based on more testing data.

Our foundation premises are like the foundation for a house of knowledge. If the foundation is weak, you can only build the house vertically, to a certain point, before it becomes unstable. Poor subjective foundations, such as bias, does not allow us to build very high. We need to stop as a certain point, which may not reach the upper floors of objectivity.

On the other hand, if we redo the foundation and reinforce it with objectivity; rebar,, now we can add even more stories. This is the correct foundation needed to perceive objectivity; build upward.

A good place to begin is to question your political bias. Often times, this bias began when we are very young, before we are innately objective. It may not be due to direct education, but it can appear from listening to people we trust; parents, teachers, celebrities. A more advanced place is to question the premises of science or religion, especially those which pits each against the other. Each is a separate complex specialty. A weak foundation premise can appear if we accept laymen defining things for the specialists. From there yu can never build upwards, to the blue sky in either area.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Advancing age sort of does this, since it brings one in contact with hard reality, where our systematic biases are testing, again and again. This testing allows one to come to terms with our foundational biases, that can result in the wrong perceptions, needed for objectivity; wisdom of age.
In theory, I agree. But if objectivity requires 'testing'; then when 'testing' stops so does objectivity?

What happens for most people when they age? They are comforted by familiar predictable things.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Time to introduce a new question:

Would you rather be around critics that are indifferent around you, or people that love you and think you're great, if you could only choose one?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Time to introduce a new question:

Would you rather be around critics that are indifferent around you, or people that love you and think you're great, if you could only choose one?
How many critics?
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
OK two... I can work with that.

I choose critics on the following conditions. I want a rocking chair, nice weather, a golden retriever, and the critics are @The Reverend Bob and @Revoltingest .

I'd like that too. Revoltingest will just tell you to be less fist-fighty, and given the Reverend BEASTMASTER likes music, he would just tell you off through light-hearted song.

Just make sure the golden retriever isn't sun rise, because that counts as three.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'd like that too. Revoltingest will just tell you to be less fist-fighty, and given the Reverend BEASTMASTER likes music, he would just tell you off through light-hearted song.

Just make sure the golden retriever isn't sun rise, because that counts as three.
@sunrise is a hugger, not a slugger :)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

Note I didn't define "how close" they are, I said "closer".
It all depends upon the cromulence of the thinking.
Is "deep" better than merely simple?
Look at the results.
A truth which isn't even wrong is likely useless.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Objectivity truth requires that we shut off our emotions. Mr Spock was logical and controlled his emotions. Once you add emotions, it is hard to see objective truth, since emotions will add elements of subjectivity. Progressive education places too much emphasis on emotions and feelings, which then renders many people unable to see objective truth.

For example, if I said the US economy is doing well under Trump, the Progressives will not be to see this, even if all standard measures of economic success are being satisfied. The reason is the emotion of hate or dislike for Trump, clouds their objectivity. The hate irrationally overlaps the man, with anything that has to do with the man. Therefore if you hate the man, then you also hate the economic conditions created by the man, so it cannot be good, either. This is not objective.

This is why in my previous post I maintained the position that a person will first needed to question their belief system, to make sure you were are starting with emotional premises, that were accepted based on sentiment.

The advantage of emotional based premises are not so much for objective truth in terms of what is, rather they can lead to an objective truth of what can be. Seeing the present, in the eyes of an ideal future, is not objective to the present. However, it might or may not be objective to the future. This is often a source of confusion, when it comes to objective reality, since only the present is real and tangible the future has not yet crystalized.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Progressive education places too much emphasis on emotions and feelings, which then renders many people unable to see objective truth.
au contraire mon frère...

A person needs emotional intelligence and awareness in order to recognize its effects on themselves and others. Without it, a person is not able to recognize when objectivity is lost.

Also

Emotional intelligence is more practical than objectivity in living a healthy happy life.

The emphasis on emotions and feelings in progressive education is a good thing.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
au contraire mon frère...

A person needs emotional intelligence and awareness in order to recognize its effects on themselves and others. Without it, a person is not able to recognize when objectivity is lost.

Also

Emotional intelligence is more practical than objectivity in living a healthy happy life.

The emphasis on emotions and feelings in progressive education is a good thing.

I agree. Going back to the Spock example, even the show portrays him as missing the whole picture at times, being a horrible leader when given full control, etc.
 

Road Less Traveled

Active Member
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

Note I didn't define "how close" they are, I said "closer".

In my perception, I’ve seen 15 year olds more aligned with objectivity in their nature than 70 year olds and also vice versa.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Does deep thought and duration of it lead to objective truth?

Or to reformat the question, is a person often closer to objective truth by age 70 than age 20?

Note I didn't define "how close" they are, I said "closer".
”Objective Truth” is an odd way to say ‘Scientifically proven facts”. However, given the rest of your post, I would guess that you are actually asking about “Wisdom”.
Wisdom does not come with age, but rather with the combination of experience (both good and bad) as well as the time and capacity to think about the ramifications of those experiences. Most older people have had more experiences, so have had more chances to gain wisdom, although some twits still keep trying to ice skate uphill. :facepalm:

I have an additional question to introduce to this topic. It's:

What are the pros and cons of believing that the strongest and most adaptable are the survivers in a race?
In a race for what? Survival?
That depends entirely upon the stressor that the population is experiencing. Physical strength is a ‘meh’. But adaptability can go a long way under a wide variety of stressors, by definition.

Time to introduce a new question:

Would you rather be around critics that are indifferent around you, or people that love you and think you're great, if you could only choose one?
If they love me, then they won’t coddle me or lie to me. My best friends will tell me I’m a twit straight to my face. So I choose the latter group.
 
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