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Objective morality

vepurusg

Member
Really now? I would love to see that process of eliminating of all possible attempts to describe an objective morality being reduced to a single one.
(No I am not being sarcastic - I would love to see it done - I just do not believe it can be)

It's easiest to explain if you first take morality in the context of that which is relevant to action- not simply belief for belief's sake which has no bearing on real action.

That is, a genuine functional goal.

Without that, it's a little tricky.


Once we reach that point, it's easy to dismiss all moral systems that are illogical or unscientific on the grounds that the world views they represent are less probable (and so their consequences relative to a goal can be self-contradictory, or unpredictable in the context of a real reality, and they are immoral beliefs on the grounds of their moral improbability and inconsistency).

That eliminates all claims to legitimacy of revealed religions and spiritual gnosis- relegating those to random/arbitrary sources. Being the most common historical grounds for elaborate moral systems, and still practiced by the majority, eliminating these disqualifies the majority of world opinions on morality.

What is left over is that which can be derived from logic.

One then dismisses innate goals, because acceptance of those as morality would make the term meaningless (as mentioned before).

Things like Satanism and Objectivism are out. That also disqualifies social and instinctive moral drives (hormonally based altruism, which has its own gratification and is about as relevant as sleeping or eating to philosophical morality), as well as social contract and game theory, as representing the source of objective morality (though those things definitely come into play in functional application of moral goals).

These are principles currently levied as the most rational forms of naturalistic morality by their advocates- separating them as an essential categorical division and eliminating them from consideration is essential (removing the bulk of serious competition).

Eliminating the innate or selfish goals, we're left with the other side of the self/selfless dichotomy.

Selection of any arbitrary "selfless" goal would be selfish (based on personal preference)- e.g. we can not simply choose a goal out of the blue because that choice reflects selfish desires and innate tendency, which would make morality irrelevant (such arbitrary goals fall into the former category as opinions).

This is an important categorical division among all possible goals; most possible goals being arbitrary in this respect, and so being invalidated.

Revealed morality being out already, we have to narrow it down to the science of the matter.

Rather than consideration for one's self, it is consideration for something that is not.
The only thing that is not oneself that possesses a concept capable of being considered (an interest) is another intelligent adaptive information system.

One is forced to narrow the consideration to interests that are capable of being relevant, as compared to non-interest.

e.g. We can't consider the non-interest of a rock to be painted purple as a moral goal, because no such interest exists in reality, so such an interest would be an arbitrary and self serving creation of our own imaginations (thus disqualified as having a selfish origin).

This point narrows things down massively- there are a finite number of real interests, and a virtually infinite number of unreal/imaginary interests.

We can only consider the interest of things that have interests; but in order to be non arbitrary, we must consider the interests of everything that has interests to the extent those things have said interests (anything else would be an inconsistent personal bias).

Moral relevance relative to the entity's consciousness/intelligence, in a sense- a pig has more acute and elaborate interests, and more capacity to hold them, than a house fly, for example. We have to look here hard at cognition. Adaptive neural networks in a computer simulation can be considered similarly, as can even physical evolutionary forces.

In the balance, one derives something not terribly unlike utilitarianism, but with regards to the interest of a being that can possess them as opposed to a measure of mere pleasure or pain- which may approximate those interests, but does not represent the totality of them (e.g. interests can extend beyond one's lifespan).

Interests have clear exchange rates in terms of sacrifice and willingness to experience pain to see them through; Nietzsche articulated this to some degree in his formulation of the "will to power", but the influences here are manifold, and complex enough that with our current knowledge of cognition we can only approximate them (though approximate them we should, as the greater good to ignoring them- e.g. striving closer to that goal of consideration than would be a less accurate model).

Naturally one makes use of science and logic through empirical observation, game theory, etc. to maximize efficiency in striving for one's goal (I think that goes unsaid), so there's plenty more I could go into as to execution, but the point was only to elucidate a non-arbitrary consistent and coherent goal at the exclusion of its alternatives.


I'm assuming morality is some kind of behaviorally relevant methodology of positive consideration for some goal.
Barring that, we might be able to say, rather than consideration for the other beyond oneself, morality could be complete lack of consideration for anything (not even oneself)- but that is something of a non-goal rather than a goal (e.g. due to the way the mind works via motivation, it does not result in a non-random behavior/methodology which can be practiced, and is functionally suicidal).

That potential definition is ruled out semantically, if not also logically (a goal to consider nothing must consider itself, thus negating its purpose). That gets into ontologically tricky, "This statement is false" territory.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
How does history prove this? It seems to me it only suggests a human inability to grasp objective morality.

Different societies have considered different things moral and immoral throughout history, which proves that morals aren't objective. If they were objective, everyone would know whether they did wrong or right. As long as someone doesn't agree with the morals, they stop being objective.
 

vepurusg

Member
Different societies have considered different things moral and immoral throughout history, which proves that morals aren't objective. If they were objective, everyone would know whether they did wrong or right. As long as someone doesn't agree with the morals, they stop being objective.

:facepalm:

That's circular reasoning. You are presupposing that morality is relative (an opinion, rather than fact), in order to prove that morality is relative.

Try replacing "morality" with something like "lightning"


'Different societies have considered different things the source of lighting throughout history, which proves that the source of lighting isn't objective. If it was objective, everyone would know the true source of lighting, instead of arguing about whether it is Zues, Indra, Chac, or accumulated atmospheric charge. As long as someone doesn't agree with the source of lighting, it stops being objective.'

Does that work?

Some things are opinions, and are relative. Some things are fact, and are not relative- although it's always possible for people to be ignorant, and have the facts wrong despite that.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
how do use objective morality to show evidence of God:)

It's pretty simple. If objective morality does exist, then there exist rules built into the universe which govern ethical behavior. At this point, you already have a god concept. Your universe clearly prefers ethical behavior to unethical behavior.

This is why mystics often say "God became the universe."
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
:facepalm:

That's circular reasoning. You are presupposing that morality is relative (an opinion, rather than fact), in order to prove that morality is relative.

Try replacing "morality" with something like "lightning"

'Different societies have considered different things the source of lighting throughout history, which proves that the source of lighting isn't objective. If it was objective, everyone would know the true source of lighting, instead of arguing about whether it is Zues, Indra, Chac, or accumulated atmospheric charge. As long as someone doesn't agree with the source of lighting, it stops being objective.'

Does that work?

Some things are opinions, and are relative. Some things are fact, and are not relative- although it's always possible for people to be ignorant, and have the facts wrong despite that.

Lightning is a physical thing, morals is a social construction. Beauty works the same way. Some cultures consider one thing beautiful, some consider another. They're both equally correct, because beauty is also subjective.

Could morals be objective if everyone disagrees with them or if no one knows about them? What would be the source of the morality? It can't be a divine being, because it would still be the subjective morals of this divine being, even if it were to punish and reward people based on it's morals.
 

vepurusg

Member
Lightning is a physical thing, morals is a social construction.

No, morality is a conceptual principle, like a coordinate system, or π.

Mathematics works the same way. Some people consider 2 + 2 = 5, some consider 2 + 2 = 4. The former is WRONG, and the latter is RIGHT.

When they differ, they can not both be correct because mathematics is a very objective principle.

Could morals be objective if everyone disagrees with them or if no one knows about them?

Yes, for the same reason that π was still 3.141592...etc. before we even had a word for it or knew what addition was. It was still π at the time of the big bang, and it'll still be π when all is said and done and the universe suffers heat death.

What would be the source of the morality?

The same source as π; inherent logical necessity.

Morality is a principle that can be followed by intelligent self-actualizing beings, as an existential subversion of selfishness in favor of consideration for the interests of others.

There is no punishment for being immoral, aside from the material consequences of one's actions, and the fact that it makes you a bad person (if that has any existential ramifications to your self perception).
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
No, morality is a conceptual principle, like a coordinate system, or π.

Mathematics works the same way. Some people consider 2 + 2 = 5, some consider 2 + 2 = 4. The former is WRONG, and the latter is RIGHT.

When they differ, they can not both be correct because mathematics is a very objective principle.

Yes, for the same reason that π was still 3.141592...etc. before we even had a word for it or knew what addition was. It was still π at the time of the big bang, and it'll still be π when all is said and done and the universe suffers heat death.

The same source as π; inherent logical necessity.

Morality is a principle that can be followed by intelligent self-actualizing beings, as an existential subversion of selfishness in favor of consideration for the interests of others.

There is no punishment for being immoral, aside from the material consequences of one's actions, and the fact that it makes you a bad person (if that has any existential ramifications to your self perception).


So is beauty also like math? How do we know what is morally correct? I consider eating meat morally wrong, am I wrong or right about that? Math can be proven with logic, morals and beauty cannot.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If morality is objective, then morality is intersubjectively verifiable -- but what evidence do we have of that?
 

vepurusg

Member
So is beauty also like math?

Beauty is not, as it hinges inherently on perception. Beauty is subjective. Although there are very strong statistically significant correlations, those correlations are not causal relationships (They are strong enough, though, that we can speak of statistically relevant measures of beauty based on a population).

How do we know what is morally correct?

A lot of math, psychology, neuroscience, and a healthy measure of game theory.

The interests of intelligent beings can be represented as multidimensional vectors, with magnitudes respective of a measure of intelligence/consciousness and the degree to which the interests are held, and any morally relevant actions to be computed can be projected with regards to probable interference or assistance in those interests, considering various opportunity costs, harm, and good which can be quantified and analyzed with respect to other viable actions.

I didn't say it was easy ;)
For the most part, we have to do the best we can to estimate.

I consider eating meat morally wrong, am I wrong or right about that?

The morality of an action is dependent on its probable consequences.

If you are eating meat at a McDonalds, then the consequences are that the money from that purchase is fed along the chain of commerce and into the factory farm industry, and the suffering and inhibition of self determination that came to the animals who were raised and killed to yield the meat can be roughly estimated and found to be even by conservative estimates quite profound.

Yes, that's a pretty nasty thing to do.

If, on the other hand, you were on a tropical island where pigs are an invasize species destroying the ecosystem, and you were working to cull them, then you could also weight that against the comparatively positive virtues of saving the island's ecosystem from general suffering, starvation, and all together being decimated.

That might come out to be a wash.

Likewise, if you yanked the meat from a dumpster where it would have otherwise spoiled and gone to waste, and you didn't feed any money into the animal agriculture economy (thus, no more animals harmed for production), one would be hard pressed to find substantial moral negatives (some health consequences, of course, but no major cases of suffering caused by the action).

That might also be a wash.


In order to determine the morality of an action, you have to look at the consequences.


Math can be proven with logic, morals and beauty cannot.

Morality can also be proven with logic.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
If morality is objective, then morality is intersubjectively verifiable -- but what evidence do we have of that?

Yes, it certainly is intersubjectively verifiable. However, the path to Knowledge of Good and Evil has been completed by few.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Beauty is not, as it hinges inherently on perception. Beauty is subjective. Although there are very strong statistically significant correlations, those correlations are not causal relationships (They are strong enough, though, that we can speak of statistically relevant measures of beauty based on a population).

How do you know that we can't calculate beauty? As you said, objective things can exist even if everyone is ignorant towards them. Thus, if objective morality exists, objective beauty could also exist.

If, on the other hand, you were on a tropical island where pigs are an invasize species destroying the ecosystem, and you were working to cull them, then you could also weight that against the comparatively positive virtues of saving the island's ecosystem from general suffering, starvation, and all together being decimated.
So if I say that it's wrong to kill another animal, no matter what, then I'm wrong?

It seems very anthropocentric to assume that objective morals exist, and I don't see how they could possible exist in a physical world.

We are but animals.


Could you provide some irrefutable evidence that objective morals exist? Could you perhaps provide a short list of things that are never allowed, sometimes allowed and always allowed?
 
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vepurusg

Member
Only in terms of goals. Unless you've somehow managed to find an objective goal?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

I do so by process of elimination- ruling out illogical goals until only one consistent, coherent, and non-arbitrary goal remains.


How do you know that we can't calculate beauty? As you said, objective things can exist even if everyone is ignorant towards them. Thus, if objective morality exists, objective beauty could also exist.

Beauty is a personal quality of perception; internal and with regards to the variability of a person only. Morality is an interpersonal quality of cognition; holding the same basic precept (to consider the interests of others) whatever those interests happen to be.

E.g. if we simplify morality to something like "make people happy" (this is inaccurate, but it's easier to demonstrate), then we have something like this:

Goal of objective morality: Make people happy.

Person X: Likes kittens.
Conclusion: Give person X a kitten.

Person Y: Terrified of kittens.
Conclusion: Don't give person Y a kitten.

Person Z, etc. etc.

Morality is absolute, in the sense of the goal, but conditional in the sense that what is right depends on the situation.

So if I say that it's wrong to kill another animal, no matter what, then I'm wrong?

Yes, that is something called deontology, which is a strict rule based ethic that does not consider the nuances of the situation, or the results of the actions.

Deontology is illogical, so it can not form a reliable or realistic moral system.


We can derive general guidelines from objective morality (like it's usually wrong to kill another animal), but we can't make many "no matter what" rules. It's not that simple. Deontology over-simplifies morality to the point of inaccuracy.


It seems very anthropocentric to assume that objective morals exist, and I don't see how they could possible exist in a physical world.

It's not anthropocentric in the least. Not any more than π is.

It is only coherent in the context of adaptive information systems (intelligence) though, in the same way π is not very meaningful to circles or curves in one dimensional space; without entities with interests, there are no interests to respect.

And again, bear in mind that morality is a concept- it is not a physical substance floating around, made of ectoplasm and sending people to heaven or hell.

Could you provide some irrefutable evidence that objective morals exist? Could you perhaps provide a short list of things that are never allowed, sometimes allowed and always allowed?

Like I said, it doesn't work like that. That's called deontology, which is not logical.

Logical morality is based on consequence and context.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Only in terms of goals. Unless you've somehow managed to find an objective goal?

I think we can quite simply. Forget logic, how about common sense? People want freedom, they want to live their lives. They want to practice their religion, marry who they love, have free reign over their body, etc. So the good is freedom. We can set up morals by simply saying "do not interfere with another's free will", whether free will is real or not. Equal punishment for those who violate it.

Damn, that was so simple.
 

vepurusg

Member
If morality is objective, then morality is intersubjectively verifiable -- but what evidence do we have of that?

Morality is a philosophical concept, derived from logic- not an empirical one. It is not experienced by any primary sense, but deduced by reason (with some difficulty).

Anybody can review the logic, and use the principle to derive the same moral conclusions from a particular situation. It's no less consistent than mathematics; just bigger error bars.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Morality is a philosophical concept, derived from logic- not an empirical one. It is not experienced by any primary sense, but deduced by reason (with some difficulty).

Anybody can review the logic, and use the principle to derive the same moral conclusions from a particular situation. It's no less consistent than mathematics; just bigger error bars.
Verifying the subjectivity of morality.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
You should know better than that.

Are you serious, or are you trying to tease me?
I would say that a non-empirical philosophical concept that is not experienced by any primary sense and is subject to frequent error is the very definition of subjectivity.
 
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