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Featured Objections against Hinduism?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by sayak83, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Most Hindus believe in re-birth, so do most Buddhists.

    "It is like this. As a caterpillar, when it comes to the tip of a blade of grass, reaches out to a new foothold and draws itself onto it, so the self (atman). after it has knocked down this body and rendered it insentient, reaches out to a new foothold and draws itself onto it.

    It is like this. As a weaver, after she has removed the colored yard, weaves a different design that is newer and more attractive, so the self (atman), after it has knocked down this body and rendered it insentient, makes for itself a different figure that is newer and more attractive - the figure in the likeness of a forefather (i.e. man), or of a Gandharva (elves), or of a god, or of Prjapati or of Brahma, or else the figure of some other being. "


    BrihadAranyaka Upanisad 4.4.3
     
  2. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    1, ......you want me to provide links but you have provided none you just say a study from India , that is meaningless unless some idea of who conducted the study is given , ......

    2, ....You seem to assume too much and use ''you'' too frequently , ...
    Perhaps it would be better to try to understand me and what I represent from what I say rather than what you think I am , ...........It seems that you are assiming that I am iskcon , therefore in that instance I am brainwashed therefore not worthy of listening to , so you dont listen .

    most scientists even to this very day are still descovering and still revising their opinions , some are even begining to admit that things disclosed in Vedic writings centuries before the beginings of our scientific era , are actualy correct , some even beleive that they contain things that we do not even have the capacity to understand , ...so why would I qoute you the findigs of Scientists , ...next to the knowledge in the vedas these scientists are like babys sucking their toes , .....

    as the science you discuss is that of the study of matter and as a Hindu I am interested in the understanding of God and the higer self , ....matter is of little concequence to this Hindu , ...I just wonder why the Hindu nation which was once also interested in liberatiln fron the fetteres of matterial consciousness now suddenly wants to become s materialy conscious ? this is why I wonder who and in what context this survey was taken?
    PS [email protected] ji .....when I say materialy concerned or materialy conscious , ...I mean material as pretaining to matter , ....


    Rubbish , ...there may be a lost age of reason in the minds of some , ...but not in the mind of My Guru ji whos deciplic sucession was not broken by the British , no fatal blow can destroy Sanatana Dharma nor diminish God consciousnes , ....it is weak and feable to blame the british , just as it is weak and feable to attack iskcon and all gaudiays and assume their beleifs to be invalid because of the badness of some members , this does not mean that Prabhupada was wrong , it simply means that the egos and self attachment of those who came after him , ...and I notice here on this site there is little mention of the absolutly incredible and totaly non fallen Gurus like Gour Govinda Swami , that is mostly because people here would rather dig up scandle inorder to try to discredit others because of what they think they are rather than listening , and using this lost talent of reasoning , ????

    Missleading to who ? , ......let us go back to the vedic sciences , ...they are diciplines , yes , and each mastered by the adept as his Duty , ...his Dharma , ....not as is to day for name , fame and noteriety, ....Dharma , in whic all sciences are one and lead to one as realisation of that one is the purpose of life , .....Hinduism is about Duty , ....Dharma , we have responcibility here and now towards the family , its health and well being , to society , and to God , all work in unison as a part of a complete whole , .....thus secular science alone is an incomplete science .

    as for you remaining comments on iskcon I will not perpetuate the argument , by even arguing with you except to say if you wish to discuss it off line I would be perfectly happy to do so as long as you are prepaired to hear a very differnt side to the movement than the one you so enjoy to paint , ....this does not deminish the wrongness of those who ceased power after Prabhupadas passing , but it does give a very interesting lesson from which all could learn and that is that we should be ever watchfull of the ego and its ability to distort our own minds , ......but still there are good people in iskcon who are infinatly more aware .
     
  3. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Don't know a lick about it, and not interested in wasting my time with it. I guess if i was a Sikh or Muslim, I could have an issue with it.
     
  4. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Then I'm guessing it was dropped by Shinran Shonin because I have not heard Rinban Bob or the new priest mention it. As for Tibetan Buddhism, they still adhere to it, but the Dalai Lama XIV thinks different because of the threat from China. China has taken his replacement and put their own replacement in. It's taken an ugly turn.

    "In the mid-1990s, the Dalai Lama identified a 6-year-old boy as the Panchen Lama, a position second only to the Dalai Lama himself. But Chinese authorities took custody of the child, and his whereabouts remain unclear. Meanwhile, Chinese authorities identified another youth as the Panchen Lama, but he never won the trust of Tibetans.

    In 2011, the Dalai Lama wrote: “Should the concerned public express a strong wish for the Dalai Lamas to continue, there is an obvious risk of vested political interests misusing the reincarnation system to fulfill their own political agenda.” He said then that he would reevaluate whether the custom should go on when he was in his 90s.

    Why the statement now?

    In fact, the Dalai Lama has claimed that as early as 1969 he made clear that the Tibetan people should decide whether reincarnations should continue. He has previously stated that he would not reincarnate in Tibet if it were not free, and he has mused that the Tibetan people should select their religious leaders democratically. To that effect, he has already divested the political power of his role to an elected official, based in India.

    In September, the Dalai Lama stepped up his rhetoric on this point, raising the suggestion that he might be the last of his line. “If a weak Dalai Lama comes along, it will just disgrace the Dalai Lama,” he told the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag."

    ...

    "What do Chinese authorities say?

    After the Dalai Lama’s statement in September, the Chinese government issued a firm rebuttal. Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told reporters, "The title of Dalai Lama is conferred by the central government." China, which is officially atheist, will follow “set religious procedure and historic custom” to select a successor, she said.

    Other officials have followed suit. "Only the central government can decide on keeping, or getting rid of, the Dalai Lama's lineage, and the 14th Dalai Lama does not have the final say," Zhu Weiqun, chairman of the ethnic and religious affairs committee of a high-ranking advisory body to China's parliament, told the state-run Global Times newspaper this week. “All [the Dalai Lama] can do is use his religious title to write about the continuation or not of the Dalai Lama to get eyeballs overseas.”

    What happens next?

    It’s unclear what will happen when the Dalai Lama dies, but the decision is a sensitive one that will put pressure on the Chinese government.

    If the Chinese government does select a successor, its choice could be rejected by Tibetans, and that could exacerbate strained relations.

    But the Dalai Lama has made nonviolence a key tenet of his teachings, and losing him – and any reincarnation – could also be risky.

    Wu Chuke, a professor of social science at Beijing’s Ethnic Studies University, said that if the position is left empty, “many of the Tibetan Buddhists in China will feel like that the not being able to be reincarnated will be due to restrictions from the government and will further damage the relationship between them. This will put new pressure on the Chinese government in how they will deal with this problem.""

    Why the Dalai Lama says reincarnation might not be for him
     
  5. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    This is more evidence of atheism leading to Communism (which I wrote about in the thread here -- 1 in 14 priests accused of abuse ) as they're most malleable. Marx, Lenin and Engels predicted it.

    Friedrich Engels wrote, "Just as Darwin discovered the law of development of organic nature, so Marx discovered law of development of human history."

    In 1955, Chinese communist leader Zhou Enlai declared, "We Communists are atheists". In 2014, the Communist Party of China reaffirmed that members of their party must be atheists.

    In 2016, the International Business Times reported:

    “ A senior Chinese advisor on religious affairs has said the country should promote atheism throughout society, in remarks that appear to reflect a deepening campaign to reinforce traditional Marxist values in China — and could add to concern about official attitudes among believers in the country’s five officially recognized religions."
     
  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    This in 'Objections with Hinduism'? I don't see the connection.
     
    #86 Vinayaka, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  7. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Atheism, marxism, and communism are different things. I have been an atheist all of my life and a capitalist all of my life. you might see correlation, but I don't think you can show causation.
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Perhaps the two of you could start your own debate thread.
     
  9. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    The original source was linked in the article I quoted, previously. Here,
    Project Darwin

    Where did I say, you were brainwashed? I have seen no indication to suggest anything other than the fact that you are an extremely intelligent person. I used "you" because I was speaking specifically to you, no rudeness was intended. If it came across as such I apologize. :)

    My analysis of the weight-age of the pramana-s comes from my previous interactions with you and dasa. See below,

    Dharmic Religions Only: Evolutionary Science and Hindu/Buddhist worldviews.

    This is what I meant when I said that we can continue the discussion on evolution on that specific thread.



    The same faith debates thread also contains a discussion on that matter. My position is that while work of ancient Indian scientists were indeed significant, and their philosophy and metaphysics was very advanced, the knowledge of the observable world by modern science (which include work of Indian and Hindu scientists of today) far outstrips anything found in the Vedas. It very easy, after modern science has found something, to go back to an ambiguous verse and retroactively claim that the meaning of the verse was what the scientists were saying. That reading in one's presuppositions into a vague sutra, easy to do and completely spurious. No, and authentic claim of greater knowledge must come from telling a piece of scientific knowledge from the Veda-s that science does not know yet and actually test it and show it to be true. A theory of quantum gravity based on Vedas that is shown to be true through experimental testing would be very impressive.

    However, this discussion does not belong here, we can pick up our conversation from where we left off last time
    Dharmic Religions Only: Evolutionary Science and Hindu/Buddhist worldviews.



    Dharma, Artha, Kama, Moksha are four Purusartha-s given equal weight-age in Hinduism. Ganesha- the most popular deity in Hinduism is worshiped for desire for success in professional and material realm. Lakshmi for wealth and prosperity. Saraswati for success in studies and arts. India has a materially rich culture with great skills and taste for gold ornamnets and precious stones, stone and iron works and great motivation for trading for goods through the Indian Ocean and the Silk Route. Most of the Rig Vedic and Atharva-Vedic hymns are focused on success, wealth, prosperity and health in this life. So are most chants and puja mantra-s used by Hindu-s to worship the various deities. Living, marriage, children, loving. wealth and prosperity and success and arts has always been considered autonomous good to be strived for and cherished and desire for a better life here and now and a fortunate rebirth here-after had been the driver of Hindu (and Buddhist and Jain) life for the majority through history.The number of people who have chosen asceticism and have given up on the world have always been a minority, and while they are honored as sadhu-s and saints, Hinduism is for everyone, not just for them. The ascetic ideal is important but not the only thing that is important in Hinduism.




    The organization of ISCKON has had severe problems with child molestation and oppression against women disciples. None of these people are in jail, and many are still part of the organization. I have presented adequate evidence to show this. Are any of the links and evidence I presented untrue? Instead of showing concern for the people and kids who had suffered such shocking treatment, your response only shows concern that this somehow de-legitimize your sakha-s theology?? Who cares about theology and philosophy when people are suffering? And no, it de-legitimizes nothing. ISCKON needs to truly and properly admit to and acknowledge the suffering it has caused by its policies, hold the people responsible for them for expulsions and prosecution and establish independent watchdog bodies to ensure all such future abuses are immediately found out and dealt with transparently. If you are a member and if your teacher is one of the many good people associated with the organization, this should be something you should strive to achieve within your organization. The days when guru-s can be treated as infallible deserving of unquestioned obedience are long gone, everyone is human and everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions.




    Umm no. Secular science is not incomplete science. But science itself is just a tool and is to be used in conjunction with all the other things you mention to create a complete life. Science has a specific and narrow function, it seeks to answer questions about the natural world and how that knowledge may be used to manipulate matter for our ends. It is nothing more and nothing less than this.

    It was not an enjoyable exercise at all. I grieve for those who suffered and I grieve for those whose good intentions were betrayed by the unscrupulous people who perpetrated the atrocities. But i am not convinced that these things did not occur even when Prabhupada was living, the timeline says otherwise. I am also not convinced that adequate measures have been taken to ensure that it will not happen, or is in fact, not happening now somewhere. You do not have to convince me that there are good people in ISCKON. There are excellent Catholic priests as well, not to mention the current pope. You have to convince that adequate organizational measures have been taken in a transparent manner to identify and prevent and prosecute future abuse. And you do not have to convince me of anything. I am a Hindu and will remain so through my life looking out, seeking, and engaging in my own sadhana. Convince the people of ISCKON who had been victims that the past has been learned from and accounted for. That is sufficient.
     
  10. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    There is difference between saying everyone goes through rebirths and between saying "this specific religious leader was reincarnated as that specific boy". There is no Hindu analog for this, nor any mention of such ability in Buddhist texts, and it is a transparent attempt to ensure dynastic succession of Tibetan Buddhist leaders.
     
  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Maybe. I have long been concerned about the fact that the great respect of religious leaders in the Hindu tradition makes it vulnerable to abuse and how to correct for this.
     
  12. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    thank you I will look it up later


    I quote your previous post , .....
    ''I I understand that, as a member of ISKCON (this is correct right), you read scriptures in a way that makes you reject evolution...''

    whether intentional or not this sadly insinuates that an iskcon member will be taught... ie brainwashed into reading in one way and one way only , ......

    Actualy my main reason for rejection evolution as we were taught it in school is that during my lifetime discoveries have been made which contradict earlier assumptions therefore science is constantly changing its oppinion as to exactly how evolution happened therefore I concidder it to be an incomplete science , .....My attraction to Vedic knowledge however is very different from personal examination from what little I have been able to read in my lifetime it would appear that Vedic literature holds the key to many discoveries that are possibly still yet to come , ....it is not because I read it in any one way as instructed but merly that upon personal reflection I find it so , ......



    this is a sad and disgusting accusation , to insinuate that i do not care because I have not gone into a long diatribe about abuse does not mean that I condone it or that I do not have any sympathy for the victims it is simply that going into long discussions about the wrongs if iskcon simply derails any legitimate conversation

    ''If you are a member and if your teacher is one of the many good people associated with the organization, this should be something you should strive to achieve within your organization. The days when guru-s can be treated as infallible deserving of unquestioned obedience are long gone, everyone is human and everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions.''

    I will take this up with you in PM, .....I
    am getting just a little fed up with the ....''if you are one ''
     
  13. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    You are welcome to do what you believe to be right.
     
  14. Kirran

    Kirran
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    @ratikala - you aren't a member of ISKCON, I don't think, ratiben? But your guru respects them and is similar in doctrine?
     
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  15. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    Namaskaram Kirran Ji , sayak Ji

    Thank you Ji for your thoughtfullness and sweet attempts at concilistion , ....as Gaudiya my Guru ji is God brother to Srila Prabhupada they share the same Sampradaya therefore the same doctrine, so respect is without doubt a given thing , were Prabhupada at fault My Guru ji's calling would be to correct any fault, not by slander but by example ....but I never heard him say that he was at fault, what he did allways was to act in the best interests of Gaudiya Vaisnavism and to promote and teach Sanatana Dharma.

    What perhaps Sayak ji does not realise is that Guru Parampara or deciplic sucession relates many traditions, and that due to this each respects the other on account of these Guru Deciple relationships, furthermore we must conscidder that even by dint of Karma we may be born in a position where by we accept decipleship in one or other tradition , however this is a very complex subject , ....this subject of Decipleships going wrong is an equaly if not more complex subject , ....


    I agree with him entirely that no bonafide Guru will tollerate abuse but this does not discredit all Gurus who have had association with iskcon , but to say that no guru should be relied upon as more than Human (therefore failable) is not correct , ....however what it does mean is that we should be aware of the true qualities of a guru before going any where near to taking initiation , ....Gita explains this Prabhupada explains this , .....but sadly after the Death of Srila Prabhupada , too many of the inexperienced Gurus came to the fore, (sadly in some cases eclipsing the genuine Gurus) what perhaps Srila Prabhupada underestimated was the strength of maya , ...please understand me I am in no way excusing any of the bad behaviors but what I am trying to do is look at it so that these mistakes can be avoided in the future , .....and because this is Kaliyuga , a most degenerate age we must know to be ever watchfull of our selves and of others , ....we must look at what it was that led some possibly vunerable people taking shelter of these inexperienced but charasmatic gurus , ....because in the west we are drawn to charasmatic people , unfortunatly the position and sence of power that this gives to the would be guru is often more than his ego can resist , this is the difference between the true Guru and the 'wanabe guru' ...the true Guru is 108% humble , he is the eternal servant of the lord and of his own Guru ji , so before taking a Guru we must examine two things , ....1, our own motivation , why it is that we want to take initiation ? ...and 2, the qualities of that Guru ?.

    we must be vigilant , .....

    Bhagavad Gita chapter 16 cleqarly deliniates what are divine and what are demoniac qualities , .....

    Chapter 16, Verse 1-3
    The Blessed Lord said: Fearlessness, purification of one's existence, cultivation of spiritual knowledge, charity, self-control, performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity; nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger; renunciation, tranquility, aversion to faultfinding, compassion and freedom from covetousness; gentleness, modesty and steady determination; vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor-these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.

    Chapter 16, Verse 4
    Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance-these qualities belong to those of demonic nature, O son of Pṛthā.
    you will notice under divine qualities .......''Austerity, Simplicity ........nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger; renunciation, tranquility, .......Aversion to faultfinding , ....this means that I canot , should not spend my time engaging in fault finding , ....but @sayak83 ji , will say that this is simply my avoiding ''truthfullness'' , ....not so , I am trying to find a 'nonviolent' way of adressing the problem , by drawing attention to the Gita , to Krsnas words so that no one makes this mistake again , ......and Sayak Ji please rest assured that I am not an unfeeling monster who does not care for the victims , if I could un do what has been done by expressing sympathy then it would be the right thing to do , but it wont , it cant and it dosent , ...some people make a great show of sympathy perhaps because they do not know what else to do maybe it makes them feel more powerfull in this iniquitous world , ...but draging it out again and again could even be painfull for some people reminding them of past hurts , .....

    true compasssion knows when to speak and when to remain silent , ....my way is to re asure that there is a way of avoiding the cause of future pain by advising that we read the Gita very carefully , .....
    and further on in these qualities comes ' forgiveness' , ...on one hand I abhor all acts of violence , but I also pity the perpetrators what foolish and self centeredness drives them to fall to such an abobinable state , their passion for honour and pleasure have imnprisoned the Jiva in a hellish birth , thus there is one way and one way only , ...love gentleness even forgiveness , ...but vigilance so that it never happens again , ....

    and on to verse 4 , demoniac qualities , ....''anger'' ....anger at what is past sreves no purpose , nor does the ''harshness'' that keeps regurgitating the grewsome details of the past , this fuels the demoniac qualitys of anger and hatred , ....that causes the sepperation of the 'us' and 'them' ! ....the self rightious and the damned , ....

    and you ask am I ''one of them ?'', ....No prabhu ji I am Gaudiya , ...I am a servant of Krsna , Krsna resides in the heart of you me and Kirran Prabhu , he resides in the rightious and in the demoniac , ....this is something we must try to understand , ............



     
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  16. Kirran

    Kirran
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    I suppose there's a line to be drawn between fault-finding in the sense of picking holes in stuff out of a place of negativity and looking at things critically so as to improve them. At the moment at university I'm writing up an essay which argues a certain stance of an ethical issue - to improve it, I'm gonna get someone (probably one of my parents!) to read it and pick holes in it, find out where I haven't thought of things, where the argument made in the essay doesn't make sense. That isn't negativity, it's constructive criticism. I think we need to be open to criticism in that sense, so that we can improve things. If we see that child abuse or other atrocities are happening to any level, let alone regularly, in an organisation (be it the RCC, ISKCON or the Boy Scouts) then we need to look at why these things are happening and what enables them, so we can stop it happening.
     
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  17. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I look at the observation of others and sharing of it in the light of whether or not it benefits anyone. For example, as teachers we would share information about students. It wasn't gossip or backbiting at all, but valuable information for the new teacher, just as doctors would share and discuss a diagnosis with other experts.

    So as to other Hindu groups or sects outside my own, I can't right now think of any reason it would be helpful to anyone to bring out the 'dirt', other than as some warning. But anyone with any ability to search the internet at all, or with and sense of caution about them will surely do that anyway. So there is no point in regurgitating it, other than to boost one's ego.
     
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  18. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Am assuming you're Indian. Probably because you're not American and not familiar with Capitalism vs Communism and Christianity vs Atheism. The closest example I can think of is India vs Pakistan. I think it started out as war over territory. Today, it's more than that involving extremist Islam, Muslims and Pakistan vs India and Hindus.

    In general, atheism promotes an abstract state while religion promotes an unified state. So much so that we can divide because of religion like Muslim vs Hindus. Part of this division is the reason why atheists in the US support Islam and oppose Christianity. We even had President Obama who was more sympathetic to Muslims than Christians. The liberals support Muslims in the US while conservatives support Christians and Israel. From the abstract state of atheism, it is easier for the wealthy political leftists in the US to lead their supporters to support Muslims and Democratic Socialism and then to Communism. Muslims make up a huge proportion of legal, illegal immigrants and refugees to the US and this helps to keep them in power.
     
  19. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Well, Milton, you're a minority and small sample size in that regard. When I said that I wasn't talking to you either, but using you as an example of someone who can be manipulated.
     
  20. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Shouldn't make assumptions mate. Most of the Hindus on the forums are Americans. Vinayaka's Canadian. Sayak83's an Indian resident in the USA. I am British.
     
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