NYC’s anti-Semitic spree

[PureX]

No it isn't.
This is you confusing anti-Zionism for anti-Jewish bigotry.

This might be less of a problem if Zionists didn't identify as Jews as commonly as they do.
Tom

Exactly. And expecting most people to differentiate between religion, ethnicity, and nationality is expecting a lot.

 

[sun rise]

... Because the Jews have never done anything that could rationally inspire hatred? No offense, dude, but if I were a Palestinian right now, I'm betting I could find a whole lot of very rational reasons to hate the Jews.

Conflate Israeli policy with Jews.

 

[PureX]

I believe the trigger was the Jersey City shooting. It empowered them. The JC shooting was simply a case of terrorism fueled by religious indoctrination.

You may be right. These things do empower those of similar bent. But it would still be good to know what's fueling it.

 

[rosends]

Rage doesn't inspire discernment. And as was already stated, most humans are not smart enough to differentiate between ethnicity and nationality without a lecture and a roadmap. And in the case of Israel, itself, there is no difference. So it's not all that surprising that some who's family was murdered by Israelis would see all Jews as a hated enemy. It may not comport with YOUR process of rationalization, but it will comport with that of a great many other people.

Let's just start with this idea:
"most humans are not smart enough to differentiate between ethnicity and nationality..."
So you are comfortable conflating Jews and Israel and allowing others to do the same even with no evidence that that is what is happening. Claiming that someone can't see the difference between an ethnicity and a nationality makes it open season on anyone, at any time, because who can tell if this "American" isn't also "Christian" or this "Chinese" person isn't also a "Taoist."
And then to compound this, you say "And in the case of Israel, itself, there is no difference."
Except that there is. There are non-Jewish Israelis and Jews who object to the state of Israel. To say there is no difference just reinforces the reasonableness of blind hatred.
Then, we should remember your hypothetical -- if you were a Palestinian, you would have "rational reasons" to hate Jews. You have just said that according to your way of thinking, it is rational to carry hate for a political body and apply it to anyone in a religion, no matter the location. The fact that this makes sense to you is troubling.

 

[PureX]

I believe it is important to remember that the person advocating for "finding a reason" began his participation in this thread by positing what he thinks the reason is -- not because of a pre-existing relationship between the offender and the Jews victimized, or even between the offender and Jews in general. In fact, the rationalization wasn't at all about religion -- it was an attempt to link violence against Jews anywhere to a socio-political situation thousands of miles away about which that person has a particular opinion.

If this was just an attempt to understand hatred and its roots, then maybe that might be a useful exercise. Maybe. But when it is an agenda driven attempt to vilify and, implicitly, to suborn an idea that there is a conspiracy of silence, that one is not supposed to question certain things, it stops being anything reasonable

Boy, are you ever seeing things that aren't there!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think there was a significant discrepancy between the actuality of violence in the past, and the perception of it, to the actuality of violence, now, and the perception of it. We are simply FAR more aware of the violence in our society, now, than we were in the past.

I think also that the nature of the violence has changed. What we see now is narcissitice self aggrandizing violence. "Look at me! Look at me!" sort of thing. You really didn't see that when I was a kid. The culture truly has become a lot more self centered. It used to be that if you didn't like your marriage, you divorced. If you were deeply disturbed, you committed suicide. These days, you kill your wife and kids. What's with that?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Has any of this to do with the horrific behavior of the Israeli government, lately? No one seems to be willing to even ask that question for fear of being labeled an anti-Semite.

Seems unlikely. Paradoxically, the people who hate Jews individually all seem to love Israel collectively.

 

[rosends]

Boy, are you ever seeing things that aren't there!

"Well, that made no sense, but it if made you feel better ..."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

if I were a Palestinian right now, I'm betting I could find a whole lot of very rational reasons to hate the Jews.

Really? So now you are excusing Palestinian anti-Semitism?

Look, if a black guy kills my family, and I start hating on all blacks, that is irrational. Period.

If there is a war going on, and my side is killing theirs just as their side is killing mine, it is irrational to hate people of their ethnicity who live elsewhere in the world.

All you are really doing is excusing anti-Semitism. You are looking worse and worse with every post.

 

[PureX]

Let's just start with this idea:
"most humans are not smart enough to differentiate between ethnicity and nationality..."
So you are comfortable conflating Jews and Israel and allowing others to do the same even with no evidence that that is what is happening. Claiming that someone can't see the difference between an ethnicity and a nationality makes it open season on anyone, at any time, because who can tell if this "American" isn't also "Christian" or this "Chinese" person isn't also a "Taoist."

All I'm saying is that it could indicate a cause that could perhaps then be addressed. Stop trying to demonize me for daring to ask some apparently uncomfortable questions for some of you.

And then to compound this, you say "And in the case of Israel, itself, there is no difference."

Well, it is a nation, an ethnicity, and a religion all intertwined.

Except...

The exceptions do not disprove the rule.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

... Because the Jews have never done anything that could rationally inspire hatred?

Jews as a group have never done anything that would justify hatred of Jews as a group. Individual Jews have done great wrongs. But you don't hate the entire group for the wrongs of some.

Ask your same question, inserting "blacks" where you said Jews, and you'll see how stupid, insulting, and racist your question is.

 

[PureX]

I think also that the nature of the violence has changed. What we see now is narcissitice self aggrandizing violence. "Look at me! Look at me!" sort of thing. You really didn't see that when I was a kid. The culture truly has become a lot more self centered. It used to be that if you didn't like your marriage, you divorced. If you were deeply disturbed, you committed suicide. These days, you kill your wife and kids. What's with that?

That seems more like grandiosity than selfishness. But regardless, I blame 100 years of incessant commercial advertising telling us we should have everything we want, whenever we want it, for whatever reason we want, just because we want it. That crap has got to have had a toxic effect. How could it NOT?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I feel like this stuff has been becoming more and more common lately. Are we gonna finally get a grip and start dealing with the problem yet?

Not in America. America doesn't deal with problems any more. Runaway deficits? Gun culture out of control? Caging children? Crumbling infrastructure? Eroding middle class? Global warming? Millions uninsured? Increasing division and mutual hatred? Foreign interference in elections? All ignored if not actually promoted.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket here, but I am reporting what I see, which is that there is no cavalry coming to rescue America from itself. The momentum of the last several decades will undoubtedly continue propelling America through its present arc of ongoing degradation. It's unrealistic to expect any political, social, or economic force to appear out of nowhere to redirect this runaway behemoth.

The principle forces and conditions needed to make a difference is an intelligent and informed electorate, honest elections, a culture of cooperation and of high moral standards, and a government responsive to the will of the people. America has none of those at this time, and little reason to expect that to change any time soon.

Yes, people want hope that this is not the case, which usually comes in the form of just hoping, but I'd rather prognosticate using evidence. Perhaps that is a result of my experience with hospice, where family members often hope against hope for a reversal of a trend of declining health due to a pathological process that cannot be mitigated enough to prevent ongoing demise.

The trajectory for the terminally ill patient is fixed, and those simply hoping for a miracle are bound to be repeatedly dashed upon the rocks. Those able to read the signs that predict the future, however grim that prognosis is, and adapt appropriately will be best served. In the case of the irreversibly dying, failing to recognize that fact predisposes one to ongoing suffering as each new loss becomes evident, forcing the person to suffer the death over and over before it arrives, whereas the one who can see and accept the inevitable has already begun and perhaps completed the grieving process, which ends with acceptance, will not be nearly as rattled by the ongoing worsening of the patient.

That's where I am with America. I expect to see it erode further for the rest of my life, and have accepted that. Those still hoping for what cannot occur - there's no magic despite the magical thinking of some - will just have to be repeatedly disappointed and frightened by events to come.

Incidentally, I came to this conclusion about fifteen to twenty years ago, when I was already dissatisfied with American life, and was confident enough that it was only going to get worse for the rest of my life that we made plans to expatriate, which we did ten years ago - a successful adaptation. Life became better.

 

[PureX]

Jews as a group have never done anything that would justify hatred of Jews as a group. Individual Jews have done great wrongs. But you don't hate the entire group for the wrongs of some.

A lot of people do, especially when that great wrong was done to them, personally. Like it or not, this is just how most humans are.

Ask your same question, inserting "blacks" where you said Jews, and you'll see how stupid, insulting, and racist your question is.

Nevertheless, this is how a lot of people think. And if this is what's fueling these recent acts of violence against Jews, we need to acknowledge it, and try to figure out a way to stop it. Condemning human stupidity does very little to thwart human stupidity.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Look, I get it about the violence, but I am still unclear on what makes a person a Jew.

It can't be biological because a person can convert to Judaism and be considered a Jew.

It can't be national because many citizens of Israel are not Jewish.

It can't be base on religious observance because most people who call themselves Jews in Israel are secular.

It seems in these type of discussions that this lack of clarity leads to situations where a specific poster seems to bounce around between definitions.

 

[Stanyon]

Blame the left. Typical

Not blaming anyone but those that are doing it.

 

[Nakosis]

Today was attack # 10 against Jews during Hanukkah. All these attacks have been in Brooklyn. Today five people were stabbed at a Hanukkah party.

I’ve always thought of the US as a safe place for Jews to be. I don’t know about that anymore.

I suspect it has become more acceptable to blame a specific group for one's own problems. Blame the Jews/Christians/Muslims, blame the corporations/government, blame the rich/poor. However we can justify our inability to resolve the problems we face.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do we know that these perpetrators were members of that group? Were all of them? If not, what about the others? What is fueling this particular group's hatred for traditional Jews? Is there anything we can do about it?

We know for certain that the Jersey City shooters were inspired by the Black Hebrew Israelites, whether or not they were official members. It is a religious conviction of the BHI that Jews are "fake" and evil, and the white man is the devil.

The subsequent offenders? I doubt it. But they learned the hate from other Black sources such as Farrakhan/Black Islam, which has filtered down to the streets. They have completely forgotten that it was the Jews who stood beside them during the Civil Rights movement, and Jews who continue to vote against discrimination.

 

[rosends]

All I'm saying is that it could indicate a cause that could perhaps then be addressed. Stop trying to demonize me for daring to ask some apparently uncomfortable questions for some of you.

You haven't started asking the same apparently uncomfortable things about anyone else, nor have you explained how your uncomfortable questions make any sense. You also haven't explained why those questions are even necessary. You just don't like the obvious answer and want to find an avenue for your separate, political feelings. Stop over-reacting to an uncomfortable but accurate characterization of your position.

Well, it is a nation, an ethnicity, and a religion all intertwined.

Um, no, it isn't. If you think it is, please tell me -- which of those am I? Which one is this guy?

The exceptions do not disprove the rule.

Your "rule" was that in the case of Israel, there is no difference. I say "except that there IS a difference." So this isn't an "exception" but an absolute disproof. Pithy little responses don't undermine my point.

 

[rosends]

Look, I get it about the violence, but I am still unclear on what makes a person a Jew.

It can't be biological because a person can convert to Judaism and be considered a Jew.

It can't be national because many citizens of Israel are not Jewish.

It can't be base on religious observance because most people who call themselves Jews in Israel are secular.

It seems in these type of discussions that this lack of clarity leads to situations where a specific poster seems to bounce around between definitions.

The answer to your initial question is pretty straightforward:
a "Jew" is someone who has the lineage or the Jewish-determined legal status of being a Jew (I worded that very carefully)

The problem is that the concept and term "Jew" is used interchangeably with "Israeli" and that is irrational.