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Featured Number of times the word "homosexuality" appears in Baha'i scriptures

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Jim, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Sometimes better not to ask.....
    And 'no', I couldn't afford you........ Mrs Badger can be very fierce, you know. I hate hospitals.
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    I've noticed it's more than just Bahai. Trump supporters, Christians, Muslims, atheists, I've seen it from a few groups.
     
  3. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Must make you proud your religion considers one of those gang raping enablers as a "righteous man."
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Who the **** cares? Everyone gets away with stuff that other people/groups don't get away with. Prime example: Grandkids are known for getting away with far more than what the kids could even dream of. This "double standard" thing didn't come about because of minority groups, we didn't ask for it, it was here before us, and you need to examine your own life before accusing others. No, it's not "fair," but life isn't fair nor is targeting a group that didn't make it that way (such as getting angry at women because for so long men have paid for dinner).
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Lot knew who they were...what makes you think she didn't? He was not engaged in the city's immorality, anymore than those with moral values are engaged in the immoral activities of today's world.

    What good was offering his daughters to those who were clearly not interested in women? He was merely buying time. His visitors were fully able to protect themselves as it turned out.

    Perhaps it wasn't so bad originally and it had deteriorated over time, in much the same way the world has in our day. You haven't noticed the moral decline? If it's going in a direction that facilitates more freedom to practice immorality, perhaps many would see it as a good thing. It's a funny thing that drunks never notice how intoxicated or ridiculous other drunks are because they are all affected by the same mind altering substance....you actually have to be sober to see how pathetic their behavior is. I see a similarity with how people view the behavior of others in a "mob mentality" sort of thing.....the "everyone's doing it" kind of thinking can be a strong eroding influence on how formerly unacceptable things can become accepted...even welcomed.

    They were told not to look at the things behind. Was it wanting to "watch God smite that horrible place" or was it more a case of thinking about all the material things she had left behind? They got out with only their lives.....she disobeyed and lost hers, highlighting a very important aspect of our worship....strict obedience to God's commands.

    Jesus also stressed the importance of not putting undue importance on material possessions when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed in 66 C.E. He told his disciples not to take anything with them...just to be grateful for getting away with their life. They also escaped to the mountains but the final destruction of a Jerusalem didn't happen for four years. There was plenty of time to take all their stuff with them, but it would have made their flight way more difficult and created its own problems. They all started their new life in a new place with nothing of their old life remaining. Another lesson.

    For God's worshippers offspring were very important. As relatives of Abraham, Lot and his daughters were the only ones left from that family line...everyone else was swept away in the destruction of the city. Since Lots daughters were betrothed but still virgins, there was no prospect of preserving Lot's family line since the intended "sons-in-law" were no longer alive. The two girls and their father were alone in a mountenous wilderness setting, so there was no prospect of finding any suitable mates. The only way to procure offspring for their father (who was now old) was to bear children to him. Remember that this was before any law was given on marriage or incest....so they broke no law.

    It was not an unusual thing for close relatives to marry in those times. Abhraham was married to his half sister. Lot's daughters knew that their father would never consent to them having relations with him, so they got him drunk and both had sons who eventually became patriarchs of their own families that branched into nations. (Genesis 19:27-38)

    You see how twisted your interpretation is? Just because you judge the situation one way, doesn't make it so. You see what you want to see and doing that gives people yourself an excuse to twist everything else.

    We need to understand that God is never wrong....it is we who misinterpret and misunderstand his motives and actions. A good motive on our part will uncover the truth and reinforce our faith in him. This has always been my experience.

    I'm not sure that Lot ever spoke for God...but his story is there in the Bible for a reason. There is a lesson there for all of us who might be interested in learning something.....but for those who just want to find fault.....you just demonstrated how easy it is to judge things on a very superficial level and why it is necessary to have a broader knowledge of the scriptures....and not to judge things on a surface appearance.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Please see my reply above
     
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    That isn't indicated in the Bible. His visitors should have ***** slapped Lot for even thinking of it (because Jesus did say the thought is enough to have sinned because it is on the heart), and made it clear they can take care of themselves instead of allowing Lot to treat his daughters as human shields. We don't call that "righteous," we call that criminal behavior. And then he had sex with them and we're supposed to believe that was just because they got him drunk and it's all his daughters fault when he could have said no more wine once he started to feel buzzed (and don't forget, it's not like he was drinking high proof liquor)? He's not righteous, he's a degenerate.
     
    #167 Shadow Wolf, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You don't see this as one of your major stumbling blocks SW?

    Who "shoulda done" what "you" think they "shoulda" done? You are going to tell God and now the angels what "you" think they "shoulda" done? Lot's motives were not unrighteous. He was, in his own estimations, offering protection to his angelic visitors in the only way he could think of at the time. That is why it wasn't wrong. These representatives of his God, sent to personally rescue him and his family from a disaster of mammoth proportions were more important to him than his own flesh and blood....now, like it or not...that was a demonstration of absolute faith.

    Who is "we"? Are you accusing a righteous man of something you see as "unrighteous" in your own view, thousands of years removed from the times and the culture? Armchair judges of the Almighty and his ancient servants....based on what? Tunnel vision? Really? :facepalm:

    Read my response to Columbus and learn something about the whole situation for goodness sake....by your own admission you were totally screwed up by your church and if this is an example of what they taught you, then any wonder you defected. You show your ignorance of scripture with every post.

    IMO you don't want to be saved SW...I think you just want to be right. All the best with that. God is never wrong and the Bible is full of stories about those who thought he was. Why do people repeat the mistakes of those who have gone before them? Because they never learn. :(
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Ever country with laws that prohibit child abuse and endangerment, and most of the citizenship therein.
    It's not a stumbling block, it's critical thought and asking questions. Tons of people wonder about the workings of Salvation, such as someone who has lived their entire life for god compared to someone who lived as a sinner and made a death-bed confession, but very few are willing to question god's judgements and ask "what's up with that?"
    I am saying that we--the world--have grown far beyond such crude and primitive "morality." We have laws now against rape, we have laws against child abuse and endangerment. Today we'd arrest Lot and make sure his daughters could not be further harmed by him. And whether he's "righteous" or not, legally the stuff he did to his daughters I would have to, as a mandatory reporter, report it to child protections.
    We--humans--have progressed morality far beyond the Bible, and are more humane, just, and equitable for it, and for most of the world we aren't as likely to die a violent death as during any previous point in history.

    Since you want to keep up with this:
    God does punish the wicked eternally. Matthew 25:46 records Jesus saying just that "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment." You say God does not punish people eternally, but God is an angry and jealous god, and Deuteronomy 32:16 reminds us that "They provoked him to jealousy ... provoked they him to anger." You are trying to obscure all the warnings of Hell, trying to make it seem like God is not the stern judge the Bible describes him as, and you do this even though there are very many verses that indicate that Hell is real and literal, such as 2 Peter 2:4 where Paul writes that God even sends sinful Angels to Hell, and Mark 9:43 where Jesus says "...it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." If you want to keep going I have plenty more.
     
  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hi.......
    I don't bother about it, just notice it. If folks want to laugh out loud or roll around on floor over important issues or questions then clearly they can't take their own beliefs that seriously. :)
     
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  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Truly it says much about people who do that. But if they want to up my "liked" rating when something's gotten under their skin, they are very free and welcomed to do so.
     
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  12. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    That's no good. It's like shouting for equality but feeling that it doesn't have to apply to ourselves. That's crazy! Suppose a minority group was only employing its own in a business to the exclusion of others, or pick any scenario you like. If that is ok then why can't everybody use their positions or situations to do same, and then we're all right back where we started.

    I don't think that spoiling grandkids is going to threaten our Equality Act here.

    When somebody tells me that a group can do something that anybody else would get pulled up for, I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm hearing that they don't really believe in equal rights. So next time I hear them calling for same I ain't going to be that bothered.

    What? Petty example or what?
    Next you'll be supporting a group which runs a hotel and excludes various outsiders. Or a company that won't employ married women, or ....... you've just dropped the torch.......
    Sad.....
     
  13. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    When I tag something as funny, it’s because I think it’s funny. You’re welcome!
     
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  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Same here.
    But you can bet that some use the funny tag as a stick to irritate.
     
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  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    It's a great example of different standards. But nobody cares until it's a minority group.

    No. I tend to get annoyed when people try to blame minorities for problems and issues that minorities did not create or perpetuate. Such as how some men get angry at women because for so long traditionally men have paid for dinner. It's the same double standard, but it is not the fault of women, but rather that of the generations of men who came before and instilled a sense of having to be "chivalrous." White people want to get angry at black people for "black only" meetings? White people pretty much made it that way with centuries of segregation and a continued culture of segregation that lived on after the passage of the Civil Rights Act.
    Double standards do suck. But you have to look at the full picture instead of pointing out only a few groups for doing what is extremely common place throughout about every level of society. From the double standards of kids and grandkids, republicans and democrats, men and women, young and old, black and white, they exist everywhere you look but you'll never see it if you only single out minorities (missing the forest for the trees).
     
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    If everybody thinks that they should be able to bend the system for themselves, for whatever reason, then the system falls.

    Everybody is a minority of 'one'........ and everybody needs to support equality for all.

    :shrug:
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    That's how people, in general, tend to behave. "Do as I say, not as I do." It's problematic, yes, but hardly anyone ever mentions it or complains until a minority group is being targeted for it.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Are you assuming that what occurred in Bible times has any relevance to what people accept or reject today? In those times and right up until the 20th century, children had no rights. They were the "seen and not heard" invisible ones who had to put up with abuse from everyone...parents, teachers employers, priests and nuns, etc. since time immemorial....so, not at the hands of God but at the hands of man.

    Today there are laws in place to protect the rights of children...but they are fairly new on the world scene and only apply in wealthier countries. Child abuse and exploitation are still very much a part of life in many Asian, African and Sth American countries. Unfortunately the rate of child trafficking even in the USA is very high. Countless children go missing every year and they are never found. What is being done about that?Who is protecting them?

    Perhaps that's the problem.....maybe the humans need to look at their own judgment of God instead of jumping to the conclusion that God must be wrong.....maybe it was the humans who got it wrong all this time....? Did you never think of that?

    And if you look at the laws of God you will see exactly that. If humans simply followed the "Golden Rule" advocated in both Israel to the Jews and in Christianity, you would see that if people put themselves in the place of their 'victim' and asked..."would I like this to be done to me?"....and if the answer is "no"....then no atrocity or crime against anyone could ever be committed. God had that all covered and there was nothing "primitive? about his moral laws.....they were there to protect sinful humans from themselves.

    How many people want to obey God? What is the fruitage of immorality?....unwanted pregnancy....STD's....jealousy and broken relationships....lack of trust....domestic violence, theft, murder, rape and a host of other problems when people "cheat" on each other or don't respect another person's property or life.
    Do you understand where the sense of betrayal comes from when a partner "cheats"? We are designed to be monogamous, so promiscuity feels wrong to those who have not relinquished their moral standards to a world that has lost their moral compass.


    Oh please....did you even read the Bible account? What are you talking about "legally"...??? There was NO LAW at that time. They weren't children...they were of an age to marry. It wasn't what Lot did to his daughters....it is what they did to him. They got him so drunk that he didn't even know when they came in to him and when they went out. And even then, because there were no laws broken and no immoral intent, God never punished them. What they did was preserve their father's family line...something that was important in patriarchal Bible times.

    Not from being gay perhaps....but more likely from a terrorist attack or a home invasion or car-jacking....and we have progressed morally you think? Morality isn't just about sex you know...
     
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  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    But it still stands as evidence that we have produced a better sense of morality than what the Bible gives us. It says if you spare the rod you don't love your child, we say put down the rod and instead show a sense of love that doesn't hurt them.
    Slavery - we've banned it but the Bible permits it. Rape - ok throughout the Bible but we have criminalized it. Religious tolerance - it was considered important enough to make it number one on our list of 10, but god's list of 10 doesn't mention it, but says elsewhere that apostates and those who worship other gods are to be killed. And some places and nations instead of focusing on punishment for crimes focus on rehabilitation instead to make people better members of society instead of better criminals.

    What does being gay and sex have to do with this? And, yes, for most of the world, we won't die from a terrorist attack, we won't be killed in a home invasion, and war probably won't kill us either. Never have we been so sure of tomorrow, so reasonable to assume death in old age, and so sheltered from death being a constant present factor in our lives. Instead of losing all our family, friends, and neighbors when our village is raided, we lose a friend or a loved on to cancer. Even Europe has made it nearly a century without any major internal wars or conflicts.
     
  20. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    @oldbadger @Shadow Wolf @Deeje @Vinayaka @Unveiled Artist

    I have a new interest now in discussing what Baha’is and Baha’i writings say, and more importantly, do not say, about homosexuality, but I’m not sure why. It might be to learn more about the possibilities in Internet discussions, for what I might want to do.

    First I’ll try again to get all my cards out on the table. I missed a few last time.

    I see a prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against any man, regardless of his orientation, inserting his penis into another man’s anus, or if not that, against making that part of any social institution, formal or informal. I would not agree for all Baha’i marriage laws to be imposed on any couple other than a man and a woman. I object to calling that a prohibition against homosexuality, because I think that “homosexuality” means a lot more than that to most people. I think that helps popularize false ideas about what is prohibited in some religious scriptures, which I think has harmful consequences.

    Apart from those exceptions, I don’t think that the healthfulness or morality of any romantic or sexual feelings, impulses or even behavior, has anything to do with anyone’s sex type or gender. Apart from those exceptions, I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against anything that anyone calls “marriage” between two men or two women.

    Even though I see a prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against that one interaction between two men, I don’t think that’s something that Baha’i institutions should be trying to enforce. I’m not sure any of them do any more. I haven’t seen any reports of Baha’i institutions trying to enforce that prohibition in the last fifteen years or more.

    I’ve never seen any Baha’i on the Internet who agrees with me about all that. Most of the Baha’is that I’ve seen discussing it either say that the prohibition is against all sexual relationships between two men or two women, or say that there’s no prohibition at all, and that it’s wrong and anti-gay for Baha’i institutions to refuse to put a “Baha’i” stamp on same-sex marriages. I’ve also seen a few Baha’is who openly and shamelessly promote the idea that same-sex romantic and sexual feelings and impulses are despicable in themselves, and despised by God.
     
    #180 Jim, Sep 24, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
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