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Featured Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.


    Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?


    To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

    She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

    In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).
     
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  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The most important video.. Mythical writings explained.

    [video]
     
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  3. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    @Jonathan Bailey , your objections to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary the God-bearer have been noted, recorded, and sent to our Holy Father, Pope Francis. You should be receiving the Pope's summons soon, ordering you to report to Rome to answer charges of heresy. You would do well to study the Church's teachings regarding the Doctrine at issue in the meantime. Take care, Terry Sampson

    Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception
     
    #3 Terry Sampson, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Luke's account of what Mary said is pure fiction.. Its mythmaking and you deserve to know why.
     
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  5. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    That guy with curly hair and glasses is trying to "debunk" the so-called myth of the Gospels.

    With God anything is possible. Anything is awesome. Anything is extraordinary. Anything is amazing.

    The Gospels are all true to the letter. God just set all the events up to seem "mythical".

    This stuff about the Immaculate Conception makes me want to get back into a Protestant church again,
    albeit an LGBT-affirmed one (unlike the United Methodist Church I was baptised in and permitted women ministers
    and didn't condone homsexualty in its social principles) and one where it is forbidden for any woman to be ordained.

    The minister who baptised me, Pastor Conrad, was a man and I have a baptismal certificate with his signature. I still accept this baptism
    as a true Christian baptism which is needed for me to enter the Kingdom of God upon my own death. Rev. Conrad, to the best of my memory, baptised me at age 17 by placing two or more of his fingers in a bowl of water (possibly holy water from the River Jordan)
    and then placing such wet fingers upon my head and declaring me baptised. I can't remember if if he said he baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, however. I do know that the United Methodists did, in 1981,use the term Holy Ghost and not Holy Spirit.

    Some churches, when one joins a church other than their baptismal church, may or may not recognize the other' church's baptism as valid.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Sermon on the Mount was created in the Book of Matthew AFTER the destruction of the Temple and most probably closer to 100 AD than 70 AD.

    You think God set the gospels up to "look mythical" ? Really?
     
  7. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Mary was born with original sin like all humans. BUT she was free from personal sin. Because of Mary, God came to earth. We own a lot to Mary. She is the most holy of holy.
     
  8. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Good news, @Jonathan Bailey. From the posts of others in this thread, it looks like you won't be traveling to Rome alone.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Most of us don't believe in original sin or inherited sin.. Neither Jews nor Muslims buy into that.
     
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  10. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    The original sin is the cause we are mortal beings. God doesn't die but we do because we drifted away from God (this is the original sin).
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    So blood sacrifice for this original sin?
     
  12. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had to die because as a human he had all human qualities (death). He experienced death in order to defeat death.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Sounds like a lot of happy horse **** to me.
     
  14. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Nah, I disagree.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Original sin wasn't doctrine until around 400 AD. Strictly political … has NOTHING to do with God.
     
  16. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, Jesus existed but later on the Romans with a few Jewish took Jesus' teachings and created a religion. I'm not surprised that they add things later on.
     
  17. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Say for the sake of argument Mary, was not perfect. Nevertheless, she bore a child who was the son of God. This paradox would imply that biology alone is a not a sufficient condition for divinity. It would imply that free will and choice plays a role. DNA does not guarantee or preclude anything.

    If you took a group of babies, with the exact same DNA; clones, and placed them, at birth, in various environments; rich, poor, safe, stressful, they will all be physically the same, but development and temperament could be all over the board. Environment plays a role in the emotional, intellectual, psychological and spiritual development. These differences are not just the due to the environment, but also can be due to choices made at various crossroads of life. One bad or one good choice can define a life.

    In Jewish tradition, one's connection to the Jewish tribe was based on maternal DNA; bloodline on mothers side. Jesus was a Jew in terms of this biological definition; mother Mary, even if he was not orthodox, by choice.

    Mary, was a subset of being Jewish. She was biologically a Jew, but also unique and part of a unique environment, for Jesus, based on her own choices. This was based on faith in God, for her blessing,which when combined with the choices of Jesus, led to the full divinity of Jesus; his mission becomes clear.

    For example, Jesus was given choices in the wilderness, by Satan, which could have altered the outcome. Jesus would have become the rich and powerful Messiah anticipated by the Jewish people., who would subdue all enemies. However, choices made earlier in life made another path clear.

    The choice for salvation is not innate or based DNA, but has to be groomed and then chosen. One reason Christianity spread was because it was not about bloodline or DNA. It was about a choice for salvation, regardless of DNA or environment; beyond the tribal or class system. This was a 2000 year old scientific theory which said that free will exists apart from the DNA; divine soul.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Paul of Tarsus was a Jew and a Roman citizen from Turkey. Turkey was part of the Roman Empire at the time.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    This was a belief in the early Church, although it's not possible today to know whom started it and exactly when if was made.

    Mary's importance comes in part from Jesus telling the apostle John to take Mary as John's mother as well. I believe that's found in John's gospel but I have to leave now so I don't have time to look it up for you.
     
  20. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Nope. Only logically possible. God can not make a squared circle for example.
     
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