Now Belgium bans burqa in public places

[Badran]

Any comments from the Muslims in this forum?
Any explanations for the state of countries with predominant Muslim population?

Make a thread about it if you're interested, and may be it would be addressed there. As it could not possibly be any less relevant to the topic of this thread. Also its quite a big discussion of its own.

 

[beenie]

the vast majority of populations in heavily-Muslim inhabited countries IS peaceful. it's the very powerful, loud, minority that rules the roost unfortunately.

i know i've answered this numerous times, but i'll do it again.

Muslim-populated countries are much younger than most societies. many of them are recently out of European/British control and are finding their path. look, i'm not excusing radicals' behavior. i find it abhorrent. the very clerics that are supposed to be making these Islamic Republics tolerable to live in are failing. they are either too uneducated to run a society or are ousted by kings, dictators, etc.

ideally (and this is just MY take on things)...Islamic countries will not stand a chance to succeed until a revolution, and i mean a huge, civil war type revolution, takes place. outsiders need to STAY OUT and let them resolve this. after such revolution, a secularized system needs to be implemented UNTIL such time that Shariah law can be updated and understood...PROPERLY, and can then be implemented. this will have to occur in such a way that human rights, for both men and women, will be granted. no religious police (Shariah has no calling for this anyway), no Taliban-type implementation, no mullahs running roadside madrasas...

until Muslims stop worrying about how to clip their fingernails, how to cover each and every strand of hair, face, feet...until Muslims stop fighting amongst themselves over who prays properly, who fasts properly, who eats with what hand...all these Fiqh-y things that DIVIDE us...our societies will never stand a chance.

the biggest obstacle standing between Muslim countries current state and a successful one is unity amongst Muslims.

this is MUSLIMS' fault.

but, one has to be utterly BLIND to deny that a united Islamic society is the biggest fear of the non-Muslim world...and other societies will and presently do interfere (stirring up trouble amongst Muslims, invading countries on a false-pretense, etc.) to make sure it's damn near impossible for Muslims to unite. it's no mistake that the British divided Pakistan/India the way it did and left key areas for "them" to work out.

yes, it was their fault then, but now it's the Pakistanis' fault. pick yourself up and move on. but no, they'd rather be CORRUPT and sell themselves out. do keep in mind though...the US is very good at keeping its enemies as allies too.

i don't blame the fear either; taking a look around at actions of the radicals...i don't want that type of society either. for some reason, they think they can take completely illiterate, poor, desperate people and throw a WARPED version of Shariah on them and all will be well. even the illiterate, poor, desperate people know when their rights are violated, but unfortunately, they have no way to express it. THAT is why Muslim-inhabited countries are suffering. not ONE of them is actually practicing or implementing TRUE Shariah...and they won't until they are educated and empowered.

edit: sorry Badran, i was typing my novel when you replied.

 

[Badran]

edit: sorry Badran, i was typing my novel when you replied.

No problem, i didn't mind reading this great post.

 

[kai]

i have to say it:

is this "religious forums?" or "bash Islam forums?"

funny how most of the Muslims on this board have open minds about Christianity and Judaism (and other faiths as well...you don't see us bashing and ranting about your faiths), yet it's perfectly acceptable to continually bash Islam.

nice fair forum, folks.

I dont think thats fair ,there are hundreds of topics and threads to choose from. no one bashes Islam for the sake of it , if you think they are being unfair report them.

i have been a member here for barely a month, and i have done my best to try and break down many of the stereotypes/fallicies/misconceptions people have of Islam. apparently it's more fun to just insult the religion than it is to learn about it.

again if you find something insulting report it, all the mechanisms are here on RF to enable people to debate subjects without being insulting.

 

[nameless]

I don't think its a requirement in Islam. Others however view it differently.

why do you think necessities based upon wrong understanding of religion is to be preserved to make life of others a terror?

People are supposed to be guaranteed the freedom of practicing their religion.

how can this be against the freedom of practicing a religion when it is practiced misunderstanding the religion?

And like i said necessity or not it is up to them to decide whatever they want to do in regards of their view of their religion.

in regards to religion, no reason to consider burqa as a necessity. And when burqa is not a necessity, what wrong in banning it to save basic rights of humans.

Those who don't think its a necessity but still wears it have every right to do so without your interference.

again, while adopting measures to save women from oppression, it is not necessary to preserve the non-necessities.

First there is no human necessities scarified, there are some trouble in wearing this.

quoting again tasleema nasreen's response.

let's burn the burqa : tasleema nasreen

My mother used purdah. She wore a burqa with a net cover in front of the face. It reminded me of the meatsafes in my grandmother's house. One had a net door made of cloth, the other of metal. But the objective was the same: keeping the meat safe. My mother was put under a burqa by her conservative family. They told her that wearing a burqa would mean obeying Allah. And if you obey Allah, He would be happy with you and not let you burn in hellfire. My mother was afraid of Allah and also of her own father. He would threaten her with grave consequences if she didn't wear the burqa. She was also afraid of the men in the neighbourhood, who could have shamed her. Even her husband was a source of fear, for he could do anything to her if she disobeyed him.

As a young girl, I used to nag her: Ma, don't you suffocate in this veil? Don't you feel all dark inside? Don't you feel breathless? Don't you feel angry? Don't you ever feel like throwing it off? My mother kept mum. She couldn't do anything about it. But I did. When I was sixteen, I was presented a burqa by one of my relatives. I threw it away.

Second it is up to them to do whatever they like in this regard.

quoting here one you earlier post

Face covering in general, i'm not talking about burqa in particular, face covering are worn for religious reasons.

you should make it clear for what reason exactly they wear burqa, ie based on their personal interests or religious? and if it is religious, the religion dont ask to do so....

Indeed. I do hope you can apply that to all things, as hard as that seems to be for you to do.

if applied to all things, there is no question of wearing burka, since burka involves oppression for a few.

Sure, just not in this pathetic way, by oppressing others.

pathetic how? oppressed personal freedom or religious freedom?

 

[TashaN]

[109] Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed. From selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplisheth His purpose: for Allah hath power over all things.(Quran 2:109)

 

[Badran]

why do you think necessities based upon wrong understanding of religion is to be preserved

Let me say it again. And this is the last time i'm going to say it. This is how they preserve their religion, just because i don't agree doesn't mean i have a right to decide that their view is a misunderstanding and treat them based on that. I think they are wrong, but i have no right or authority to treat them as if their understanding of their religion doesn't count just because i don't agree with it. Can you understand this simple idea? This is their view of Islam.

how can this be against the freedom of practicing a religion when it is practiced misunderstanding the religion?

I hope this is clear by now.

in regards to religion, no reason to consider burqa as a necessity. And when burqa is not a necessity, what wrong in banning it to save basic rights of humans.

Like i said it is a necessity for some, and those who don't view it as a necessity, but as an extra effort, still have their right preserved to practice that part of their religion.

again, while adopting measures to save women from oppression, it is not necessary to preserve the non-necessities.

If it wasn't related to religion at all it would still be their choice to wear what they want. Are you capable of understanding this simple concept? Or is it beyond your ability to comprehend? The simple and basic idea of a woman deciding what to wear, wether it is for a religious necessity, a religious "non-necessity", or a reason not related to religion at all, she should still be able to wear it.

quoting again tasleema nasreen's response.

And? How can i help you? A woman asking her mother some stuff, what should that tell me? I already know women who wear it, there is some trouble in wearing it. But there are no "basic life necessities" that they can't do.

you should make it clear for what reason exactly they wear burqa, ie based on their personal interests or religious? and if it is religious, the religion dont ask to do so....

No i shouldn't, i'm doing you a favor by repeating myself. When i should simply be telling you to go back and read my posts more carefully.

if applied to all things, there is no question of wearing burka, since burka involves oppression for a few.

Yes wearing whatever by force does indeed involve oppression.

Now, do try to understand this part:

When you force the ones who willingly wear it, to take it of, that too is oppression.

Have you grasped it yet? Lifting oppression from some by oppressing others is not a solution.

pathetic how? oppressed personal freedom or religious freedom?

Both.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Let me say it again. And this is the last time i'm going to say it. This is how they preserve their religion, just because i don't agree doesn't mean i have a right to decide that their view is a misunderstanding and treat them based on that. I think they are wrong, but i have no right or authority to treat them as if their understanding of their religion doesn't count just because i don't agree with it. Can you understand this simple idea? This is their view of Islam.

This point you have made here is a brilliantly broad-minded view. I must say quite akin to the view that Hinduism as a whole has. Alas, if only Mohammad himself had been so broad-minded to have left idol worshippers alone, though obviously he did not agree with them. He unfortunately had to see destruction of idols as part of practise of Islam. Live and let live is a rare phenomenon in religions.

 

[darkendless]

What they think is completely irrelevant. I can't believe this, why on earth would you have a say in how a woman chooses to dress?

This is a democratic country. What they think is what runs our country. People who have an issue with democracy have no place within our borders.
What a woman "wants to wear" is not often accepted by the public. Social norms should not be stretched for a burqa.

My question agin, why would women in the west wear a burqa when they have the less visually dramatic hijab?

 

[beenie]

This is a democratic country. What they think is what runs our country. People who have an issue with democracy have no place within our borders.
What a woman "wants to wear" is not often accepted by the public. Social norms should not be stretched for a burqa.

My question agin, why would women in the west wear a burqa when they have the less visually dramatic hijab?

this argument is going in circles.

why does the public get to decide what is acceptable for a woman to wear? isn't that just as oppressive as forcing a woman to wear a burqa? please explain why any society (secular or Islamic) gets to decide what a woman wears rather than the WOMAN deciding what she'll wear.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

this argument is going in circles.

why does the public get to decide what is acceptable for a woman to wear? isn't that just as oppressive as forcing a woman to wear a burqa? please explain why any society (secular or Islamic) gets to decide what a woman wears rather than the WOMAN deciding what she'll wear.

LOL it's maddening at times, isn't it?

I think the women in this thread ought to get together for a Girls Day Out and have some laughs over lunch. Then we can plan our global takeover.

 

[beenie]

LOL it's maddening at times, isn't it?

I think the women in this thread ought to get together for a Girls Day Out and have some laughs over lunch. Then we can plan our global takeover.

i'm SO THERE!

 

[Badran]

This point you have made here is a brilliantly broad-minded view. I must say quite akin to the view that Hinduism as a whole has.

Thank you.

Alas, if only Mohammad himself had been so broad-minded to have left idol worshippers alone, though obviously he did not agree with them. He unfortunately had to see destruction of idols as part of practise of Islam. Live and let live is a rare phenomenon in religions.

I agree that live and let live is rarely practiced, but i do think a lot of religions advocate it, even if indirectly.

I don't know why you think Muhammad (pbuh) did not have tolerance for idol worshippers or that he harassed them. He as well as us are instructed to tolerate all people with any kind of worship, and even protect them. This is off topic, but if you have the Kaaba incident in mind, this is not a general rule or practice that we're supposed to do. We're not supposed to go around destroying temples or idols of others.

 

[Badran]

This is a democratic country. What they think is what runs our country. People who have an issue with democracy have no place within our borders.
What a woman "wants to wear" is not often accepted by the public. Social norms should not be stretched for a burqa.

My question agin, why would women in the west wear a burqa when they have the less visually dramatic hijab?

Is or is not Australia a secular country? If it is, i expect those women to practice their religion like any others, regardless of what others feel about it, naturally.

As to why do women wear it instead of hijab, they can do so for whatever reason they want. However, some of them view it as religious necessity and some view it as something called "Sunnah" in our religion. Sunnah means something that is not required, but is like a bonus, for those who want extra.

 

[Kathryn]

i'm SO THERE!

Let's all dress very provocatively.

 

[beenie]

Let's all dress very provocatively.

ooooh, let's!

 

[Kathryn]

You know, there's nothing unsexy about a very thin, fancy shmancy veil...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Let's all dress very provocatively.

ooooh, let's!

You know, there's nothing unsexy about a very thin, fancy shmancy veil...

That's it, I'll wear a sheer see-thru burqa with a thong and pasties underneath. I'm wearing my Fendi "Sex and the City" heels and carrying my whip.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Freedom of religion > purported female's rights protection.

I don't see so many woman protesting the Burqas. I do see women in Burqa protesting the ban. Just an observation.

 

[Kathryn]

Ooh, I've got a little whip myself.

I've also got a french maid outfit around here somewhere...and a pirate wench outfit as well...decisions, decisions...