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Nothing other than God?

LAGoff

Member
Tumah(why do you call yourself Tumah?),

Anyway, you say: "There's nothing else. Only our perception that there is something else." Then you say: "On an essential level there is G-d and there is me."

How is this not a logical contradiction?

My logical mind tells me(I'm speaking for myself) "There's nothing else", while I practice Judaism as if "On an essential level there is G-d and there is me".
This creates in me cognitive dissonance(which I can live with), but it is not a logical contradiction(which I can't live with).
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Tumah(why do you call yourself Tumah?),

Just a name I've been using for a while, completely unrelated to anything.

Anyway, you say: "There's nothing else. Only our perception that there is something else." Then you say: "On an essential level there is G-d and there is me."

How is this not a logical contradiction?

My logical mind tells me(I'm speaking for myself) "There's nothing else", while I practice Judaism as if "On an essential level there is G-d and there is me".
This creates in me cognitive dissonance(which I can live with), but it is not a logical contradiction(which I can't live with).

The reason why I said it, is because I understand from my (albeit very limited) understanding, the connection between G-d to the physical world works through a kind of evolution from the One to the many. Meaning G-d is one and the further you get from G-d to the physical the stronger plurality appears. Or the further you get from the physical, the more the Unity becomes apparent. Similar to Philo's emanationism, I think. This is also reflected in the evolution of the Simple to the complex, and the Singularity to the universe. The closer to the Source we go, the more everything reflects the Divine Unity.

So although even the latest stages of complexity is really only a manifestation of the Divine in a way that appears complex, and all is really One. At some early point along these stages, begins the appearance of the reality of the self.

That is what I mean, that although in reality, there is nothing else. Still the world was created in such a way that at a certain stage of the process I have a perception of self.

I think this is also reflected in the names of the soul: The higher levels of the soul is called the YeCHiDaH, the Unity of the individual. Then above that is the "CHaYaH D'KLaLuS" or "General Life", where the souls of the nation are unifying and then the "YeCHiDaH D'KLaLuS", the "General Unity" where the souls are really one. At least this has been my understanding.

I've been trying to piece these issues together for some time now. I think we've had the same basic questions. There aren't many clear sources available on these subjects as philosophy is not an area of study generally encouraged because of the dangers involved. And the sources that do deal with these issues require a much more profound knowledge of Jewish literature before engaging in them.

So, I don't know if I am putting it all together correctly or understanding the ideas correctly. But so far this is what I've come up with from everything I've learned either from studying on my own or asking my Rabbis.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Well... I am indeed a Torah observant ("ultra") Orthodox Jew and, quite frankly, in the immortal words of Michael Valentine Smith as he said to Jubal Harshaw (and to a worm and to a blade of grass) "Thou art god."
Nothing wrong with that.
 

LAGoff

Member
Well... I am indeed a Torah observant ("ultra") Orthodox Jew and, quite frankly, in the immortal words of Michael Valentine Smith as he said to Jubal Harshaw (and to a worm and to a blade of grass) "Thou art god."
Nothing wrong with that.

I assume you pray. Do you pray to Yourself?
 

LAGoff

Member
No.
However, I am curious as to where you are coming from.
Do you pray? Believe in G-d? If so, what are the parameters of your religion or belief?

I want to find out how my co-religionists view God(I wish you'd expatiate on your "no").
I try to pray 3 times a day in my apartment.
I believe in God.
My parameters? Can you rephrase that?
Anyway, I am just trying to maintain a separation between me and God, and find it difficult to do with Orthodox Jews making statements like yours.
That's why I stay in my apartment instead of joining the brave new Jewish world that-- to my mind-- has gone too far with "there is nothing other than God".

I-- not you-- am a stranger in a strange land, as its message has taken over.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
I want to find out how my co-religionists view God(I wish you'd expatiate on your "no").
I try to pray 3 times a day in my apartment.
I believe in God.
My parameters? Can you rephrase that?
Anyway, I am just trying to maintain a separation between me and God, and find it difficult to do with Orthodox Jews making statements like yours.
That's why I stay in my apartment instead of joining the brave new Jewish world that-- to my mind-- has gone too far with "there is nothing other than God".

I-- not you-- am a stranger in a strange land, as its message has taken over.
Very nice. Stranger in a strange land, eh?
However, you should get out more.
I do not spend my time as I also pray three times (or more) a day; study Torah; and involve myself with my fellow Jews and community - telling people that "thou art god."
That would be pointless and, to some, offensive.

However, if I had a chavursa which was so inclined to study such things, I could prove, using accepted Torah sources, that G-d does, indeed, inhabit every atom of every particle in the entire Universe, including Man and, especially including our souls.
As a matter of fact, there is a great deal of discussion by the meforshim as to whether or not our souls are a distinct part of G-d or something less connected - and, which "soul?" (neshama; nefesh; ruach; yehida; chaya).
How does our soul(s) connect with G-d.
Etc.

A Gadol might tell me to stop wasting my time on such esoteric matters but, he would not refute my contention that we are all part of G-d.
He might find the phrase "Thou art god" inappropriate but, he would agree that at least part of our soul(s) is intimately connected to G-d.

Nu?
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Hey Moish,

Yeah, for some reason LA is struggling with the fact that he is a panentheist. Some folks have inner struggles that are quite challenging. Jacob comes to mind, right ?

Thanks for providing all those different ideas about the soul, I will have to do some research there.

Also, I doubt a real Gadol would criticize LA for his journey. After all, it is perfectly natural.

Have a great day, dude. :)

Very nice. Stranger in a strange land, eh?
However, you should get out more.
I do not spend my time as I also pray three times (or more) a day; study Torah; and involve myself with my fellow Jews and community - telling people that "thou art god."
That would be pointless and, to some, offensive.

However, if I had a chavursa which was so inclined to study such things, I could prove, using accepted Torah sources, that G-d does, indeed, inhabit every atom of every particle in the entire Universe, including Man and, especially including our souls.
As a matter of fact, there is a great deal of discussion by the meforshim as to whether or not our souls are a distinct part of G-d or something less connected - and, which "soul?" (neshama; nefesh; ruach; yehida; chaya).
How does our soul(s) connect with G-d.
Etc.

A Gadol might tell me to stop wasting my time on such esoteric matters but, he would not refute my contention that we are all part of G-d.
He might find the phrase "Thou art god" inappropriate but, he would agree that at least part of our soul(s) is intimately connected to G-d.

Nu?
 
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Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Hey Moish,

Yeah, for some reason LA is struggling with the fact that he is a panentheist. Some folks have inner struggles that are quite challenging. Jacob comes to mind, right ?

Thanks for providing all those different ideas about the soul, I will have to do some research there.

Also, I doubt a real Gadol would criticize LA for his journey. After all, it is perfectly natural.

Have a great day, dude. :)
Thank you. I grok...

However, I wasn't implying that a gadol would criticize LA for his journey, I was implying that I might be criticized for saying "thou art god."
That would be chutzpadik on my part and, therefore, I wouldn't even think of joking around like that with a Jew would would find that offensive or, more to the point, incomprehensible.
Most Orthodox Jews I know have never read "Stranger in a Strange Land" nor would they have any interest in doing so...
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Thank you. I grok...

However, I wasn't implying that a gadol would criticize LA for his journey, I was implying that I might be criticized for saying "thou art god."
That would be chutzpadik on my part and, therefore, I wouldn't even think of joking around like that with a Jew would would find that offensive or, more to the point, incomprehensible.
Most Orthodox Jews I know have never read "Stranger in a Strange Land" nor would they have any interest in doing so...

I think he was just saying גר הייתי בארץ נכריה
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
I think he was just saying גר הייתי בארץ נכריה
Oy.
Sorry.
My original cryptic quote, "thou art god," was from a science fiction novel by Robert Heinlein called "Stranger in a Strange Land."
I was acknowledging LA's recognition of that quote.

Sigh.... I hate explaining my cryptic humor...
:shrug:
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
I think he was just saying גר הייתי בארץ נכריה

Google has a nice translation tool. Here is the translation of what you wrote:

"I live in a foreign land".
 
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Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Hi Tumah,

Google has a nice translation tool. Here is the translation of what you wrote:

"I live in a foreign land".

Actually, that was not what I was saying at all.
I think Tumah was referring to LA, not you... I think...
It's a quote from the parsha - Moses in Midian with his wife Tzipporah -
Shemos, 2:22 -

She bore a son, and he named him Gershom, for he said, "I was a stranger in a foreign land." כב. וַתֵּלֶד בֵּן וַיִּקְרָא אֶת שְׁמוֹ גֵּרְשֹׁם כִּי אָמַר גֵּר הָיִיתִי בְּאֶרֶץ נָכְרִיָּה:
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
I think Tumah was referring to LA, not you... I think...
It's a quote from the parsha - Moses in Midian with his wife Tzipporah -
Shemos, 2:22 -

She bore a son, and he named him Gershom, for he said, "I was a stranger in a foreign land." כב. וַתֵּלֶד בֵּן וַיִּקְרָא אֶת שְׁמוֹ גֵּרְשֹׁם כִּי אָמַר גֵּר הָיִיתִי בְּאֶרֶץ נָכְרִיָּה:
Obviously.

I-- not you-- am a stranger in a strange land, as its message has taken over.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Google has a nice translation tool. Here is the translation of what you wrote:

"I live in a foreign land".

Avi,
I would caution you regarding the Google translator. For example, just out of curiosity, I ran Psalm 23 through the translator and this is what I got -

A psalm of David: Jehovah, my friend, I shall not want
Green Pastures, Irvicni; over - who offerings administrator
He restoreth my soul; hath brought me circles - justice for him.
Even that - go through the valley of the shadow of death, no - fear evil - that - you are with me;
Rod and Mshantc, Hema Inhmni
Will be held before a table - against Tzrri;
Fertilize oil heads, glass Roya
But, goodness and mercy will pursue - all - days of my life;
And dwell in the house - the Lord took days.

Peter
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Avi,
I would caution you regarding the Google translator. For example, just out of curiosity, I ran Psalm 23 through the translator and this is what I got -

A psalm of David: Jehovah, my friend, I shall not want
Green Pastures, Irvicni; over - who offerings administrator
He restoreth my soul; hath brought me circles - justice for him.
Even that - go through the valley of the shadow of death, no - fear evil - that - you are with me;
Rod and Mshantc, Hema Inhmni
Will be held before a table - against Tzrri;
Fertilize oil heads, glass Roya
But, goodness and mercy will pursue - all - days of my life;
And dwell in the house - the Lord took days.

Peter

"Fertilize oil heads" . I guess they need to develop a Haftorah translator tool. :)
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
A psalm of David: Jehovah, my friend, I shall not want
Green Pastures, Irvicni; over - who offerings administrator
He restoreth my soul; hath brought me circles - justice for him.
Even that - go through the valley of the shadow of death, no - fear evil - that - you are with me;
Rod and Mshantc, Hema Inhmni
Will be held before a table - against Tzrri;
Fertilize oil heads, glass Roya
But, goodness and mercy will pursue - all - days of my life;
And dwell in the house - the Lord took days.

Peter
Thank G-d for His circles of justice and fertilized oil heads. My cup is overflowing with glass roya, that's for sure.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It seems to me inescapable logic that there is nothing other than God, because God cannot create something that isn't God.[/FONT]

If anyone has a way out of this 'logical inescapableness', I would like to hear it.

Makes sense to me
 
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