Nothing lasts forever in this life

[KWED]

No Baha'i ever said (let alone insisted) that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger because He claimed to be a Messenger. That is a big fat straw man. How many times do I have to tell you this?

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And yet, whenever I ask you for the argument or evidence for him being a messenger of god, you always respond with what he said!

 

[KWED]

I am making no claims, I have beliefs, as I explained on a previous post.

You have a basic problem understanding what words mean.
You have made repeated claims on here.
Even the sentence "I am making no claims, I have beliefs, as I explained on a previous post." is a claim.

I never complained when my beliefs were challenged.

Your friend @Seeker of White Light does little else but complain about it.

In fact, I like it when they are challenged because that just provides me with free advertising.

"Advertising" seems to be another word that you are struggling with.
To the open-minded, objective observer, your posts do nothing to make Bahaism look attractive or even rational.

 

[KWED]

God does not want everyone to know him, only the wheat. God separates the wheat from the chaff.

So when he said that he created mankind "only to worship him", he was lying. He actually created mankind with an inbuilt caste system, where only the ones he creates able to worship him can worship him.
So why does he create people who are unable to worship him? What's the point?

The proverbial phrase "separate the wheat from the chaff" may not be terribly meaningful to you — unless you happen to be a grain farmer. The chaff is the husk surrounding a seed, the part of the grain that is generally thrown away.

God wants those who recognize His Messengers, whoever they are.

But the ability to recognise a messenger is determined by god.

You raised a very good point. There is no effort in that, but that is not what I mean by effort. The effort needs to be exerted to recognize the latest Messenger of God, not the previous ones.

So god is happy with the vast majority of mankind never worshiping him, despite only creating them to worship him.
Yeah, that makes sense.

It is not impossible if you look at Baha'u'llah with humility and an open mind.
You cannot believe because you reject the evidence that Baha'u'llah offered.

 

[KWED]

No, but @KWED speaks for you.

Well, I seem to understand what he says better than he does.

 

[samtonga43]

You have a basic problem understanding what words mean.
You have made repeated claims on here.
Even the sentence "I am making no claims, I have beliefs, as I explained on a previous post." is a claim.

Your friend @Seeker of White Light does little else but complain about it.

"Advertising" seems to be another word that you are struggling with.
To the open-minded, objective observer, your posts do nothing to make Bahaism look attractive or even rational.

I have said before now that when I joined this forum I really expected Baha'is to be rational, and thought I might learn more about their faith. However because of Tb and friends I would never recommend this 'advertising' to anyone.

 

[KWED]

It is not my argument. it is what scriptures say.

So you do find it convincing. And you find it convincing because it is in the scriptures. And whatever is in the Scriptures must be true.
There's that classic circular logic again.

There is absolutely no logical reason why God would want a lot of people to believe in His latest Messenger since God has no need for anyone to believe in Him at all.

So you are calling god illogical for creating mankind in the first place, because he created mankind only to worship him and he has no need for worship.
But given that, you claim it is more logical for god to want only a few people to worship him than everyone. So he creates billions but only gives a few the ability to worship him.

Dear gods! Do you even think about what you post?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So just to be clear, whenever you talk about "god" you are referring specifically to the one described in the Quran and sunnah, and not any other version. Yes?

NO ! How many more times???

There IS only One God.
It is you that want to make out that the majority of us all believe in "differnt gods".

We might have different creeds .. it is more than likely, in fact.
That is about details of a particular faith
i.e. Baptist, Jehovah's witness, Protestant, Sunni, Shia etc. etc.

We all believe that the One Almighty God created the universe.

 

[KWED]

That's not what I said. Never mind.

It's what you implied by claiming that Bahaullah wrote for a Middle Eastern, Muslim audience - despite it being the the revelation of a perfect god for all mankind attempting to clear up his earlier failed attempts to do the same.

I do not want to discuss this anymore.

Don't blame you!

 

[KWED]

I did not read all 34 pages...

So - the oldest religion and oldest religious text "wins" if it's to be a belief in a never-changing always present God?

What is the oldest text again? India?

According to @Trailblazer it is the newest one that wins (although that only applies if you already follow it - any later ones must be false)

 

[KWED]

Yes, it would be the greatest thing that ever happened if it's true. You just reminded me of this website:

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.......

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

The problem you have is that none of those are convincing to objective, impartial, open-minded examination. They all require an existing belief that there are actually "fulfilled prophesies".

Rather than employing a kind of Gish Gallop, why don't you present your very best, most convincing, stone dead gotcha! example of a "fulfilled prophesy", and we can examine it.

 

[KWED]

NO !
There IS only One God.
It is you that want to make out that the majority of us all believe in "differnt gods".

Are you high?
Of course the world believe in many different versions of gods!
The fact that you believe in a specific, particular version of "god" doesn't mean that billions of others believe in a different version.
And just because you claim your version is the only one, doesn't mean that others don't make the same claim about their kids, with equal conviction.

We all believe that the One Almighty God created the universe.

And all football fans believe there is one greatest team in the world. Which one do you think it is?

BTW, if you are claiming that all religions worship a mutually compatible god, then you have been sadly misinformed. Even Muhammad recognised that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you high?
...
And all football fans believe there is one greatest team in the world. Which one do you think it is?
...

You missed out this..

"We might have different creeds .. it is more than likely, in fact.
That is about details of a particular faith
i.e. Baptist, Jehovah's witness, Protestant, Sunni, Shia etc. etc."

We all believe that the One Almighty God created the universe.

 

[KWED]

I have said before now that when I joined this forum I really expected Baha'is to be rational, and thought I might learn more about their faith. However because of Tb and friends I would never recommend this 'advertising' to anyone.

Yeah, I'd had little experience with Bahais before joining this forum, and had little more than a superficial understanding of their doctrine.
I have been somewhat surprised that they currently hold the top spot for being irrational and intransigent.

 

[KWED]

You missed out this..

"We might have different creeds .. it is more than likely, in fact.
That is about details of a particular faith
i.e. Baptist, Jehovah's witness, Protestant, Sunni, Shia etc. etc."

We all believe that the One Almighty God created the universe.

You only mentioned a few Christian and Muslim sects (and even they often come to blows about the definition of their god and what he wants). You missed out all the other polytheist and animist religions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You missed out all the other polytheist and animist religions.

So what?
If you want to believe in many gods etc. that is your call.
..but most do not claim Divine origin, or are not relatively recent, so..

 

[samtonga43]

As if Baha'is don't "challenge" the beliefs of other people. They tell Hindus that their belief in reincarnation isn't true. And to Christians, they tell them that Jesus is not God and that he didn't come back to life, and he isn't ever coming back.
If I were a Christian, I'd be feeling pretty awful about hearing all that.

I am a Christian, and I don't feel the slightest bit awful. I consider the source.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you claim that some Hindu beliefs are untrue (wrong), even though they just as sincere in their beliefs and convinced that have "evidence" as you are in yours.

So, why are you right and they wrong, in this regard?
(This is where you cry "But it's not about being right or wrong, it's about being true or not true". )

The Baha'is say, claim, believe, or whatever they do, that reincarnation if not true. Therefore, it must have been added into the true beliefs that some manifestation had brought to the people of India. That's something they should be able to prove. Who was that manifestation? What were the true teaching that he brought? Or have they been lost and corrupted? Still... there should be a point in time where we can find when the teachings about reincarnation crept into the beliefs of the people of India. When did that happen? And do we know who was the religious leader that first brought those corrupt teachings into the religion?

Can Baha'i show any of that? I'd be really surprised. Yet, they make claims, or they believe it is false based on what? Their religion says reincarnation is not true? So, we should believe that without verifying what they claim.... or believe... or state as being true... or it's not about what is true or false? Or was it... it's not about right or wrong. Either way, it is always what Baha'is say that is true.

 

[Truthseeker]

Don't blame you!

I know what you are implying here. You're wrong. I'm just stating my case, and let the chips fall where they may. It's up to the hearer what their response and reaction to that is. I know further discussion won't do any good with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

And simply believing that your beliefs are rational do not make them so.

And simply believing that Baha'i beliefs are irrational does not make them so.
This point of logic flies right over your head.

 

[Trailblazer]

So that would be Ahmadiyya then. It is some 35 years later than Bahaism, and it has more followers and it builds on earlier religions.

He received no revelation from God as he was a false prophet, either deluded or a lying deceiver.

So, can we expect your conversion? Or will you come up with some excuse for why it is wrong?

I do not need an excuse for NOT following a false prophet.