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not liking it doesn't make it untrue

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Not liking a fact does not make it untrue

For instance, in Christianity, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)

This teaches us that if you are not saved then any taint of sin and it's oblivion for you

I don't like this, it sounds very unreasonable to my liberal ears

But that doesn't make it untrue!

And yet on the other hand, God has provided a way out of sin - through Jesus Christ (in my opinion) so in that light, it doesn't sound as harsh as all that...

But I am concerned that this element of bad news may put people off the good news of the Christian gospel as it sounds unreasonable and makes the whole thing sound unreasonable, when all it is doing is stating the truth (in my opinion)

I am sure there are many other examples of this happening, in other religions as well as in Christianity
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not liking a fact does not make it untrue

For instance, in Christianity, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)

This teaches us that if you are not saved then any taint of sin and it's oblivion for you.
First, how do you propose to demonstrate to the impartial onlooker that this is true?

You can't just assert it and defy your hearers to disprove it, after all. That would be the crudest form of salesmanship by attempting to generate baseless fear.

Second, look at what happens if it's true. Modern H sap sap is maybe 70,000 years old. If an historical Jesus existed, he did so 2,000 years ago. Even in 1900 there were many many people who'd never heard of him, and right now there are billions of folk in eg India and Asia to whom he's effectively irrelevant in the same way Krishna or the Buddha is irrelevant to most Christians.

If eternal doom can only be avoided in the manner you suggest, that makes the Christian god an absolute monster whose overwhelming inefficiency has led and still leads to colossal injustice, no?
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Gee! It's almost like 'truth' could refer to the logical relationship of a proposition or statement to the thing the proposition or statement refers to! That would mean truth had nothing to do with our thoughts or feelings about it at all!

Naw, can't be. You could never get that one past Mitch McConnell in the Senate. No chance it's a rule.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I don't like this, it sounds very unreasonable to my liberal ears

But that doesn't make it untrue!
It doesn't make it true either. You're not just talking about things being true or not anyway, you're also talking about them being good and worthy of unconditional worship.

And yet on the other hand, God has provided a way out of sin - through Jesus Christ (in my opinion) so in that light, it doesn't sound as harsh as all that...
"Do what I tell you to or I'll kill you!" doesn't fit in to my definition of reasonable. It sounds more like a violent dictator or abusive partner to me.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
If eternal doom can only be avoided in the manner you suggest, that makes the Christian god an absolute monster whose overwhelming inefficiency has led and still leads to colossal injustice, no?
By those standards, yes, you are right

But I believe God has pre-ordained those who believe in him - those who are "the elect"

I think that's what I think anyway...

And I don't like the sound of that either, I want to believe in universal salvation

But I have my own little theory: that when the bible speaks of Hell, it is referring to Earth, and that to go to Hell is to be reincarnated on Earth - potentially as one of the elect
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
By those standards, yes, you are right

But I believe God has pre-ordained those who believe in him - those who are "the elect"

I think that's what I think anyway...

And I don't like the sound of that either, I want to believe in universal salvation

But I have my own little theory: that when the bible speaks of Hell, it is referring to Earth, and that to go to Hell is to be reincarnated on Earth - potentially as one of the elect
Your theory is not supported by Christian scripture. An analysis on the compatibility of a good God with Christian theory of God cannot be made if unsupported theories are thrown into the fray.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Your theory is not supported by Christian scripture.
Yes, I know that

It's only a pet theory of mine that is perhaps based on wishful thinking

But the thing is, I don't equate Hell with being necessarily Hellish

I think the punishment is distance from God and Godliness, rather than eternal torture (or oblivion)

I think that if you reach out to God in this life then he will reach out to you and that if you don't you can go your own way

Personally, I'd rather go God's way than my own way

So that's one way out of it - that Hell is not a bad place therefore the unelect don't suffer on account of their disbelief, hence God is not a monster
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By those standards, yes, you are right

But I believe God has pre-ordained those who believe in him - those who are "the elect"
What test will tell us whether someone is Elect or not?

Do you have to be Christian to be Elect?

Is it possible to be Elect and not know it?

And if one is irreversibly either Elect or Not Elect even before the start, then there's nothing anyone can do about it, so why bother sweating it?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I know that

It's only a pet theory of mine that is perhaps based on wishful thinking

But the thing is, I don't equate Hell with being necessarily Hellish

I think the punishment is distance from God and Godliness, rather than eternal torture (or oblivion)

I think that if you reach out to God in this life then he will reach out to you and that if you don't you can go your own way

Personally, I'd rather go God's way than my own way

So that's one way out of it - that Hell is not a bad place therefore the unelect don't suffer on account of their disbelief, hence God is not a monster
I did not get such an impression of the state of the unsaved on reading the Bible.
I also do not get this point...if the soul can exist eternally, what is the reason that the first 70-80 years of its existence determines all rest zillion million years of its life?
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
What test will tell us whether someone is Elect or not?

Do you have to be Christian to be Elect?

Is it possible to be Elect and not know it?

And if one is irreversibly either Elect or Not Elect even before the start, then there's nothing anyone can do about it, so why bother sweating it?
I think that "many are called, but few are chosen" sums it up

And I don't think the notion of there being an "elect" cancels out free-will

(I believe in constrained agency - somewhere between free will and determinism)

I think it is possible for a person to lose their status as one of the elect on account of their own free will

And that one can become one of the elect having not been one in the past, on account of their own free will

It's all at God's discretion

I believe that Hell is alienation from God and Godliness

Not a place of torment

He'll allow you to go your own way if that's what you want, he will send you to a placed where you can do just that

A place in which God will not hear your prayers and a place where there is no divine providence at work

Basically, to a place where Atheism is true

God will not condemn you to oblivion or eternal torture as he is not sick like that

He's given people a choice, IMO
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Not liking a fact does not make it untrue

For instance, in Christianity, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)

This teaches us that if you are not saved then any taint of sin and it's oblivion for you

I don't like this, it sounds very unreasonable to my liberal ears

But that doesn't make it untrue!

And yet on the other hand, God has provided a way out of sin - through Jesus Christ (in my opinion) so in that light, it doesn't sound as harsh as all that...

But I am concerned that this element of bad news may put people off the good news of the Christian gospel as it sounds unreasonable and makes the whole thing sound unreasonable, when all it is doing is stating the truth (in my opinion)

I am sure there are many other examples of this happening, in other religions as well as in Christianity

If it works the other way around, I'm usually skeptical. Just because people like christianity doesn't make it true. I can't doubt people's experiences but it even says the devil masks himself as an angel of light. Who actually "knows?"
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
By those standards, yes, you are right

But I believe God has pre-ordained those who believe in him - those who are "the elect"

I think that's what I think anyway...

And I don't like the sound of that either, I want to believe in universal salvation

But I have my own little theory: that when the bible speaks of Hell, it is referring to Earth, and that to go to Hell is to be reincarnated on Earth - potentially as one of the elect

Perhaps heaven and hell occupy the same location, to believe God is in control is to overcome sin death and the power of the devil, no change of location, no epic battle between good and evil required. Flesh can't make the trip, gotta let go the illusion of free will and close our eyes to this world so that we may awaken as a new creation in the kingdom of heaven.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I also do not get this point...if the soul can exist eternally, what is the reason that the first 70-80 years of its existence determines all rest zillion million years of its life?

Maybe God lacked the imagination to grasp he could not grasp the concept of 'eternity' when he made the rules?
I mean, he did make us in his own image, didn't he?
And we can't do that...
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that "many are called, but few are chosen" sums it up

And I don't think the notion of there being an "elect" cancels out free-will

(I believe in constrained agency - somewhere between free will and determinism)

I think it is possible for a person to lose their status as one of the elect on account of their own free will

And that one can become one of the elect having not been one in the past, on account of their own free will

It's all at God's discretion

I believe that Hell is alienation from God and Godliness

Not a place of torment

He'll allow you to go your own way if that's what you want, he will send you to a placed where you can do just that

A place in which God will not hear your prayers and a place where there is no divine providence at work

Basically, to a place where Atheism is true

God will not condemn you to oblivion or eternal torture as he is not sick like that

He's given people a choice, IMO
Thanks for the information.

My own view is that death is the end (as all the evidence, and indeed Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 say).
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
If eternal doom can only be avoided in the manner you suggest, that makes the Christian god an absolute monster whose overwhelming inefficiency has led and still leads to colossal injustice, no?

That’s why, per my beliefs, Vishnu, the preserver of order, righteousness and justice will step in to lay the smack down. ;)
 
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