1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured not liking it doesn't make it untrue

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,371
    Ratings:
    +1,770
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Not liking a fact does not make it untrue

    For instance, in Christianity, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)

    This teaches us that if you are not saved then any taint of sin and it's oblivion for you

    I don't like this, it sounds very unreasonable to my liberal ears

    But that doesn't make it untrue!

    And yet on the other hand, God has provided a way out of sin - through Jesus Christ (in my opinion) so in that light, it doesn't sound as harsh as all that...

    But I am concerned that this element of bad news may put people off the good news of the Christian gospel as it sounds unreasonable and makes the whole thing sound unreasonable, when all it is doing is stating the truth (in my opinion)

    I am sure there are many other examples of this happening, in other religions as well as in Christianity
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,107
    Ratings:
    +37,764
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    True. Not liking something does not make it false, nor does it make it true.

    It is also useful to bear in mind that whether something is true or not has no relationship to how hard and difficult you found it was to make yourself believe it.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Winner Winner x 5
  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहम् ब्रह्मास्मि
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    12,285
    Ratings:
    +18,169
    Religion:
    Sanatana Dharma
    On a related note, believing something or having an opinion on something has no bearing on whether or not it's true.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,570
    Ratings:
    +4,498
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    First, how do you propose to demonstrate to the impartial onlooker that this is true?

    You can't just assert it and defy your hearers to disprove it, after all. That would be the crudest form of salesmanship by attempting to generate baseless fear.

    Second, look at what happens if it's true. Modern H sap sap is maybe 70,000 years old. If an historical Jesus existed, he did so 2,000 years ago. Even in 1900 there were many many people who'd never heard of him, and right now there are billions of folk in eg India and Asia to whom he's effectively irrelevant in the same way Krishna or the Buddha is irrelevant to most Christians.

    If eternal doom can only be avoided in the manner you suggest, that makes the Christian god an absolute monster whose overwhelming inefficiency has led and still leads to colossal injustice, no?
     
    #4 blü 2, Jan 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
    • Like Like x 8
    • Winner Winner x 2
  5. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,107
    Ratings:
    +37,764
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    Gee! It's almost like 'truth' could refer to the logical relationship of a proposition or statement to the thing the proposition or statement refers to! That would mean truth had nothing to do with our thoughts or feelings about it at all!

    Naw, can't be. You could never get that one past Mitch McConnell in the Senate. No chance it's a rule.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,232
    Ratings:
    +2,517
    Religion:
    None
    It doesn't make it true either. You're not just talking about things being true or not anyway, you're also talking about them being good and worthy of unconditional worship.

    "Do what I tell you to or I'll kill you!" doesn't fit in to my definition of reasonable. It sounds more like a violent dictator or abusive partner to me.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  7. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,371
    Ratings:
    +1,770
    Religion:
    Christianity
    By those standards, yes, you are right

    But I believe God has pre-ordained those who believe in him - those who are "the elect"

    I think that's what I think anyway...

    And I don't like the sound of that either, I want to believe in universal salvation

    But I have my own little theory: that when the bible speaks of Hell, it is referring to Earth, and that to go to Hell is to be reincarnated on Earth - potentially as one of the elect
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,964
    Ratings:
    +8,517
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Your theory is not supported by Christian scripture. An analysis on the compatibility of a good God with Christian theory of God cannot be made if unsupported theories are thrown into the fray.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    181,004
    Ratings:
    +60,313
    Religion:
    Atheist
    What you like...believe it's true.
    What you dislike...believe it's false.
    The problem is in the believing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,371
    Ratings:
    +1,770
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Yes, I know that

    It's only a pet theory of mine that is perhaps based on wishful thinking

    But the thing is, I don't equate Hell with being necessarily Hellish

    I think the punishment is distance from God and Godliness, rather than eternal torture (or oblivion)

    I think that if you reach out to God in this life then he will reach out to you and that if you don't you can go your own way

    Personally, I'd rather go God's way than my own way

    So that's one way out of it - that Hell is not a bad place therefore the unelect don't suffer on account of their disbelief, hence God is not a monster
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,570
    Ratings:
    +4,498
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    What test will tell us whether someone is Elect or not?

    Do you have to be Christian to be Elect?

    Is it possible to be Elect and not know it?

    And if one is irreversibly either Elect or Not Elect even before the start, then there's nothing anyone can do about it, so why bother sweating it?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,964
    Ratings:
    +8,517
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    I did not get such an impression of the state of the unsaved on reading the Bible.
    I also do not get this point...if the soul can exist eternally, what is the reason that the first 70-80 years of its existence determines all rest zillion million years of its life?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,371
    Ratings:
    +1,770
    Religion:
    Christianity
    I think that "many are called, but few are chosen" sums it up

    And I don't think the notion of there being an "elect" cancels out free-will

    (I believe in constrained agency - somewhere between free will and determinism)

    I think it is possible for a person to lose their status as one of the elect on account of their own free will

    And that one can become one of the elect having not been one in the past, on account of their own free will

    It's all at God's discretion

    I believe that Hell is alienation from God and Godliness

    Not a place of torment

    He'll allow you to go your own way if that's what you want, he will send you to a placed where you can do just that

    A place in which God will not hear your prayers and a place where there is no divine providence at work

    Basically, to a place where Atheism is true

    God will not condemn you to oblivion or eternal torture as he is not sick like that

    He's given people a choice, IMO
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,371
    Ratings:
    +1,770
    Religion:
    Christianity
    For the same reason as a school examination can determine your life chances, for the rest of your life

    Eleven-plus - Wikipedia

    Because it's a test
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    31,204
    Ratings:
    +10,438
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    If it works the other way around, I'm usually skeptical. Just because people like christianity doesn't make it true. I can't doubt people's experiences but it even says the devil masks himself as an angel of light. Who actually "knows?"
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Messages:
    648
    Ratings:
    +267
    Religion:
    Spiritual
    Perhaps heaven and hell occupy the same location, to believe God is in control is to overcome sin death and the power of the devil, no change of location, no epic battle between good and evil required. Flesh can't make the trip, gotta let go the illusion of free will and close our eyes to this world so that we may awaken as a new creation in the kingdom of heaven.
     
  17. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,107
    Ratings:
    +37,764
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    Maybe God lacked the imagination to grasp he could not grasp the concept of 'eternity' when he made the rules?
    I mean, he did make us in his own image, didn't he?
    And we can't do that...
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,570
    Ratings:
    +4,498
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Thanks for the information.

    My own view is that death is the end (as all the evidence, and indeed Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 say).
     
  19. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    20,828
    Ratings:
    +8,931
    Religion:
    śrī kṛṣṇasya sevāyām - “In Lord Krishna’s service”
    That’s why, per my beliefs, Vishnu, the preserver of order, righteousness and justice will step in to lay the smack down. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,570
    Ratings:
    +4,498
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Nice idea! Good luck with it.
     
Loading...