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Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being?
Prayers the Lord ( to Yahweh ) go to the Lord if they are said in humility. Psalms 138 specifically verse 6:

6 Though the LORD is great, he cares for the humble,
but he keeps his distance from the proud.​
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
IMO, they are all the same power. These are just different aspects of the same God who created heaven and earth.
Not necessarily. This is what the Tanakh has to say about my God Amun,

The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, said: “Behold, I am bringing punishment upon Amon of Thebes, and Pharaoh and Egypt and her gods and her kings, upon Pharaoh and those who trust in him.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Not necessarily. This is what the Tanakh has to say about my God Amun,

The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, said: “Behold, I am bringing punishment upon Amon of Thebes, and Pharaoh and Egypt and her gods and her kings, upon Pharaoh and those who trust in him.
Yes, I wasn't including your God in my reply to Eddi.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?


Why not just place the universe as supreme. After all the forces of the universe created all that we see and know.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
What if we knew, or could know? It would matter.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
If anybody knew, could know, what a god is and what a supreme being is, one could pinpoint the differences. But, alas, nobody knows.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
If there is a Supreme being then why is there the flesh and blood plight of humanity, and the savage wild of the animal kingdom?

Is SB a creator or do things just happen to be this way?

I can imagine a universe where all life is carefully planned for and this ain't it.

People grasp at straws when they say that our existence is problematic due to the existence of evil. Things being the way they are because of our nature as living beings of Earth.

Well animals are very much living creatures as well as humans and they have the hardest time of all.

If SB is supreme then I need to experience the Supreme quality and purpose of reality. I'm not holding my breath for that.

If I can imagine a supreme existence better and more productive then this one then that defeats the idea of a supreme being I think.

In deism perhaps the supreme being is stuck with inferior quality materials used to construct our universe and habitation. A poor man's God perhaps.

And if one supreme being exists then why not countless many such Gods. Throughout history monotheism has a lonely God who is extremely wrathful, judgmental, and yet self fulfilling without need of companionship.

I think most atheists reason that all we can ever know are things well evidenced and make the best of the resources we are given. Most atheists probably look at the hardest parts of existence and not just the beauty of it. Existence is certainly not tailor made for life if you consider all the devastating things that happen.

So no one can get past the question, why are things this way if a Supreme Being exists?

There are rationalizations for arguments to answer this question but if every individual creature was accounted for then we probably would all be well taken care of with solid irrefutable information available to us all. Everyone would get the measure of their deserve, or a grace that satisfies the supreme master's judgment.

Reality would be unquestionably full of answers and explanations. But for every question and answer about God there are many other possible ways of seeing things.

So if human senses and reasoning ain't enough then there has to be revelations or then it's abandonment.

Or you could say life is set up so that we seek with all our hearts and all our minds, and all our senses and only then an answer comes. But there are easily many ways to live without God that humans have developed. And why should non seekers be rejected? If I can find one good quality of a non believer then isn't that worth saving as well?

Any SB will have to prove their supremacy to meet people where they are at in this world. And the questions only get deeper and more of them.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Please define "God" and "The Supreme Being" so we know the difference. I just want to make sure I know what you truly mean
God = the character who features in the bible

Supreme Being = a being with the characteristics of the God of the bible, but who is not the God of the bible
 

Rubellite Fae

Yakṣī
What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

The name YHVH is a reference to "being; existence itself" while the name/title Elohim references power itself. In other words, without Elohim, nothing in the Universe would be able to do anything because there would be no energy, momentum, work, force, etc. If you like you can think of Elohim as immense power of the singularity that preceded the Big Bang, that which led to the strong, week, electromagnetic, and gravitational interactions we see in physics today, as well as the Power that set off that singularity's expansion in the first place. Because of Power (Elohim), the myriad things have the power to do, which is to say, interact. Many peoples in the Levant and Mesopotamia venerated a power they envisioned as a deep underground aquifer that lent it's virility to the land thus making it what we would call fertile (though fertility is associated with the female genitive power, and these people saw it the other way around: land is barren, but water makes it virile). This abyss, or for others just rivers and springs themselves, were often seen as with divine seminal fluid. In Genesis 1:2 the Hebrews asserted that even the virile power of the Deep came from that aspect of "God" which is Power itself. The word רָחַף [rachaph], which is often translated to "hover" or "move" means "to flutter, to shake, to brood." "The breath of Elohim was shuttering/brooding over the face of the waters" (the waters being those of the Deep referenced earlier in the same line) can be read to mean that Power itself ejaculated power into the Abyss. Which implies that even this aquifer that some venerate is a lesser power than YHVH Elohim, a stance that neighbouring cultures would not have been happy to hear. The Hebrews were claiming that if people are going to worship "the most powerful thing" they should worship YHVH Elohim.

Anyway, back to the name YHVH. Just as Elohim is the Power from which all power derives, YHVH is Existence from which all existing things derive their lack of non-existence. If Elohim is the power that preceded the Big Bang, YHVH is existence which preceded it. It's hard for us to conceive of anything as existing before there was spacetime or matter/energy, yet existing things cannot be the effect of nonexistent causes. So, there must have always have been at least one thing in existence for anything else to have an existence. This is YHVH.

So, when you ask, "What if there is a God, but not YHVH?" you are really asking, "What if there is a God, but not Existence itself?" There could not be any God or anything else if there is no Existence. You suppose that this God would be the Supreme Being, which is Elohim by definition. But what use is Power, if it doesn't exist?

As an aside, the fact that the Hebrews called this Power Elohim and Existence YHVH is purely based on their linguistics. The names would differ in different cultures. For example, in India these are called Prakriti & Purusha, respectively, and are personified as Shakti & Shiva.
 

Rubellite Fae

Yakṣī
If there is a Supreme being then why is there the flesh and blood plight of humanity, and the savage wild of the animal kingdom?

Is SB a creator or do things just happen to be this way?

I can imagine a universe where all life is carefully planned for and this ain't it.

People grasp at straws when they say that our existence is problematic due to the existence of evil. Things being the way they are because of our nature as living beings of Earth.

Well animals are very much living creatures as well as humans and they have the hardest time of all.

If SB is supreme then I need to experience the Supreme quality and purpose of reality. I'm not holding my breath for that.

If I can imagine a supreme existence better and more productive then this one then that defeats the idea of a supreme being I think.

Problem is, no one can prove that there's actually anything bad about the world. What makes something good or bad? A feeling you have? You being the product of a culture which has different values to other cultures? But different cultures having different values indicates that value isn't objectively true. Sure, they can be helpful for the survival and proliferation of a species, but that doesn't make them true in the same way we can all agree that a particular stone is objectively in a particular place. The fact is the stone. How we describe the location of the stone is based on human-made coordinate systems. The fact that creatures feel pain or die is the objective truth, but how we feel about pain & death is subjective and mutable.

You might imagine then, that it would be better to live in a Universe in which there was no pain. But then how would we know to remove ourselves from a situation that threatens our existence? And if we stop existing, then we can't pass on our genes. Then we end up without life. And perhaps there are infinite Universes in which this is the case. But, ipso facto, no one is there to observe the absence of pain and what a good idea it would be if there were.

You say you can imagine a better version of reality. Then I encourage you to simulate this, or at least talk them out here. I think you will find that each one you consider better has essential flaws.

Which is more likely, that you are such an amazing individual that you can create a better reality than the one we experience, or that our experiences don't actually reflect objective reality?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Problem is, no one can prove that there's actually anything bad about the world. What makes something good or bad? A feeling you have? You being the product of a culture which has different values to other cultures? But different cultures having different values indicates that value isn't objectively true. Sure, they can be helpful for the survival and proliferation of a species, but that doesn't make them true in the same way we can all agree that a particular stone is objectively in a particular place. The fact is the stone. How we describe the location of the stone is based on human-made coordinate systems. The fact that creatures feel pain or die is the objective truth, but how we feel about pain & death is subjective and mutable.

You might imagine then, that it would be better to live in a Universe in which there was no pain. But then how would we know to remove ourselves from a situation that threatens our existence? And if we stop existing, then we can't pass on our genes. Then we end up without life. And perhaps there are infinite Universes in which this is the case. But, ipso facto, no one is there to observe the absence of pain and what a good idea it would be if there were.

You say you can imagine a better version of reality. Then I encourage you to simulate this, or at least talk them out here. I think you will find that each one you consider better has essential flaws.

Which is more likely, that you are such an amazing individual that you can create a better reality than the one we experience, or that our experiences don't actually reflect objective reality?

It has nothing to do with being an amazing individual. Anyone can imagine better! Our experiences reflect an actuality but not all of actuality.

I, having a spiritual outlook, have a sense that there are universals that are causes and effects for producing love, joy, and peace vs. conflict, hate, and discord. I think that those that value wisdom, discretion, honesty, understanding, and compassion have better relationships and are less inclined to seek out violent actions. I see this as objectively true.

As for pain, I can imagine feelings of pain that are only completely tolerable, and never so permanent. Or I can imagine being indestructible with feelings that make sense and inform all creature necessities without suffering or tragedy. Now that would be supreme!
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
I’ve been thinking…

What if there is a Supreme Being…

But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

Not Yahweh?

Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?

What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?

And what if this God is the God of Deism?

And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?

GOD is the Supreme Spirit Being.

Yahweh is the message of Elijah showing the people the way to GOD. Follow Yah-way, which he preached in a time where false preachers were deceiving the people.
 

Rubellite Fae

Yakṣī
It has nothing to do with being an amazing individual. Anyone can imagine better! Our experiences reflect an actuality but not all of actuality.

I, having a spiritual outlook, have a sense that there are universals that are causes and effects for producing love, joy, and peace vs. conflict, hate, and discord. I think that those that value wisdom, discretion, honesty, understanding, and compassion have better relationships and are less inclined to seek out violent actions. I see this as objectively true.

As for pain, I can imagine feelings of pain that are only completely tolerable, and never so permanent. Or I can imagine being indestructible with feelings that make sense and inform all creature necessities without suffering or tragedy. Now that would be supreme!
Your values as described here, are self defining. You say that some are "better" without actually defining objective good. You say these values are inversely proportional to violence without providing evidence that violence is in any way meaningful. Again, you are using human faculties to say, "The world isn't good enough, so if someone created it, they either don't know it's so bad, don't care that it's so bad, or can't do anything about it being so bad. Therefore, such an entity doesn't exist."

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Say you’re running and you think, ‘Man, this hurts, I can’t take it anymore. The ‘hurt’ part is an unavoidable reality, but whether or not you can stand anymore is up to the runner himself.—Haruki Murakami

Have you considered that if we were indestructible, we would in our hubris destroy everything else? We're already destroying our habitat despite the fact that it could lead to our own demise. Then someone in that Universe could say, how can there be a God when men are indestructible? Besides that, how can you even know it's within the realm of possibilities for anything to be indestructible? We don't observe indestructability anywhere in the Universe. Maybe that's completely incompatible with the physics that allow creatures to grow and change. Would it then, be better for the same indestructible entities to live forever, never growing, changing, or learning? If all life were indestructible, where would we obtain the energy to keep going? Wouldn't we just end up reproducing and using up all the available energy?

And, if humans lived forever and never changed, what would even be the point in this reality? I mean, the reality you describe sounds more like descriptors for what a deity is. If God is eternal and unchanging, why make a Universe full of eternal unchanging entities? What would be the point?

My point in my original response was that no matter what you can imagine, someone else can find flaws in it. So, it is hubris to say you can imagine something better than what exists because humans can't even agree on what qualifies as "better." Better to what end? Since we don't know the telos of the Universe, or even if there is one, then how can we say anything about what would be better for achieving it?

Let's suppose that you were able every night to dream any dream that you wanted to dream. And that you could, for example, have the power within one night to dream 75 years of time. Or any length of time you wanted to have. And you would, naturally as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure you could conceive. And after several nights of 75 years of total pleasure each, you would say "Well, that was pretty great." But now let's have a surprise. Let's have a dream which isn't under control. Where something is gonna happen to me that I don't know what it's going to be. And you would dig that and come out of that and say "Wow, that was a close shave, wasn't it?" And then you would get more and more adventurous, and you would make further and further out gambles as to what you would dream. And finally, you would dream ... where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today.
—Alan Watts
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I’ve been thinking…
What if there is a Supreme Being…
But that this Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
Not Yahweh?
Not "God", but "The Supreme Being"?
What if there is a God but Yahweh doesn’t exist?
And what if this God is the God of Deism?
And do the prayers we say to Yahweh go to The Supreme Being? Does The Supreme Being answer them, assuming they are addressed to him?
YES

If so, then does it matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham?
Correct it also does not matter that The Supreme Being is not the God of Abraham or v.v.

My Master told us this specifically, that it does not matter to which God you pray ... it will reach God

God knows, and He also knows that your picture of God probably is a bit off anyway. So, everybody prays to the wrong God, if you put it in that way

Nobody KNOWS exactly what God is. And probably nobody KNOWS even a bit what God is. Most people have no personal experience with God, so at best its hearsay, and even not that, mostly its only bookish knowledge, and nowadays its not even that, its "google knowledge". And thanks to Trump we know all about "fake news", so chances on faulty knowledge about God is enormous.

My Master also told us, that the key is that you pray from your heart ... it should be a heartfelt prayer
@stvdvRFprayer
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Your values as described here, are self defining. You say that some are "better" without actually defining objective good. You say these values are inversely proportional to violence without providing evidence that violence is in any way meaningful. Again, you are using human faculties to say, "The world isn't good enough, so if someone created it, they either don't know it's so bad, don't care that it's so bad, or can't do anything about it being so bad. Therefore, such an entity doesn't exist."



Have you considered that if we were indestructible, we would in our hubris destroy everything else? We're already destroying our habitat despite the fact that it could lead to our own demise. Then someone in that Universe could say, how can there be a God when men are indestructible? Besides that, how can you even know it's within the realm of possibilities for anything to be indestructible? We don't observe indestructability anywhere in the Universe. Maybe that's completely incompatible with the physics that allow creatures to grow and change. Would it then, be better for the same indestructible entities to live forever, never growing, changing, or learning? If all life were indestructible, where would we obtain the energy to keep going? Wouldn't we just end up reproducing and using up all the available energy?

And, if humans lived forever and never changed, what would even be the point in this reality? I mean, the reality you describe sounds more like descriptors for what a deity is. If God is eternal and unchanging, why make a Universe full of eternal unchanging entities? What would be the point?

My point in my original response was that no matter what you can imagine, someone else can find flaws in it. So, it is hubris to say you can imagine something better than what exists because humans can't even agree on what qualifies as "better." Better to what end? Since we don't know the telos of the Universe, or even if there is one, then how can we say anything about what would be better for achieving it?
Objective good is that which produces virtues of character and brings welfare, love, joy, and peace to deserving people. A good person is all the qualities of virtues. Those whom are virtuous are deserving. There are at least 50 virtues I can think of. Virtues are qualities of character that make life worth living for deserving people. That is what good is, virtues!

Violence is evidently meaningful in that nobody desires harm or death by way of violence.

The world is not without good. However it is definitely not supremely suited and tailored for the existence of life. Anybody and everybody wants to have a meaningfully worthwhile life full of worthy experience. Everybody wants fulfillment. We live for the purpose of fulfillment and to enjoy things we love. That's life.

Virtues of goodness:

Honesty, charity, compassion, discretion, wisdom, work, rest, joy, peace, love, courage, benevolence, trustworthiness, right relationship, deservingness, patience, loyalty to the virtuous, mercy to the repentant, justice, temperance, steadfast in virtues, diligence, humility, faithfulness in healthy relationships, civility, the desire to see virtues done, studious, true to your word, helpful to good people, discernment, etc.

Goodness itself is a lengthy subject. It involves discernment, and a keen spiritual sense. It really is an in depth study. Good is good regardless of anyone's feelings and opinions, thus it is objectively good.
 
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