1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Not Capitalism nor Socialism

Discussion in 'The Political World' started by IsaiahX, Nov 17, 2018.

  1. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    174
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    [(Jesus + Music) - (Bible + Bigotry)]^2
    Is there a compromise for Capitalism and Socialism? It seems to me that Capitalism is too focused on competition and greed while Socialism is too vulnerable to Government control and influence.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,920
    Ratings:
    +29,088
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    Most advanced nations have mixed economies in which capitalism is relatively well regulated and there are checks on socialism. That seems to work for most nations.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    I don't think either the OP or @Sunstone understand what socialism is -- @Sunstone, it is not possible to mix capitalism and socialism. They're two contradictory economical systems; what you're thinking of is checks on a free market. Capitalism is not the same thing as a free market, and in fact doesn't require a free market; capitalism works quite happily under a planned economy or a social democracy or whatever. Every country in the world, to my knowledge, is capitalist, including Norway, China, and Cuba. Socialism, conversely, has never really come about on a nation-wide scale.

    Traditionally, the idea the OP is thinking of is referred to as fascism -- the Third Position; a rejection of both communism and capitalism, as the Nazis and Nazbols said. Not that I recommend you invest yourself in it.

    What I think the OP actually means is generally called social democracy.
     
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,920
    Ratings:
    +29,088
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    @Duke_Leto, roughly speaking capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by private investors for profit. In comparison, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community as a whole and administered for the benefit of all.

    In America -- and most advanced nations -- you do indeed have a mixed economy. For instance, most American businesses are privately owned, but some services, such as public roads, public school systems, public police and fire departments, etc, are community owned. That is, there is a mix of private and public ownership.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Rival

    Rival Noachide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    12,593
    Ratings:
    +13,870
    Religion:
    בת נח
    You took the words right out of my mouth. As well as modern notions of welfare, which iirc, come from a socialist background, and the NHS.
     
  6. Eddi

    Eddi Mark 5:9

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    507
    Ratings:
    +288
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, there is:

    Third Way - Wikipedia
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,546
    Ratings:
    +1,014
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    The role of government should be strictly legislated and defined to avoid its abuse. The ones that benefit most from free markets should be held most responsible for government infrastructure and services. Its only fair that oligarchs pay their dues to the rest of humanity. A fair proportionate tax system should reflect that. With great wealth comes great responsibility.

    Perhaps separate state governments should be able to have checks and balances at the federal level collectively.
     
  8. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,881
    Ratings:
    +5,457
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    You could go with the way Sweden does, freemarket social democracy, lots of billionaires but not killing off the little guy to desperation.
     
  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    10,058
    Ratings:
    +2,826
    Religion:
    Pelagianism
    My country is living a historic moment...we are trying to restore the socialist state, that had been brought down through a shady and discrete coup d'état organized by the Brussels élites in 1992...and Soros was an accomplice of that.


    European countries have all different kinds of socialism...but it seems that the EU doesn't approve of them.
     
  10. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    I’ll grant that it’s a rough definition, but that roughness blurs understanding. Businesses don’t need to be managed by private entities to be capitalist, for instance.

    Socialism is the abolition of the law of value, and all its entrapments — money, commodity production, exchange value. It is a fundamentally different type of society than that which presently exists. No matter how much the state owns — even if it owns and manages everything — that is not socialism; it is governance. The point of socialism isn’t to nationalize factories; it’s to abolish them. The struggle isn’t against some cartoon cariacture of CEOs or banksters who are themselves slaves of capital; it’s against capital itself, and no amount of institutions being “publicly owned” (that is, owned by the state) makes a society “socialist”.
     
  11. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    9,044
    Ratings:
    +6,566
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Democratic socialism.

    As a general guide, the Scandinavian countries seem to have it pretty well worked out.
     
  12. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    9,044
    Ratings:
    +6,566
    Religion:
    Catholic
    The point of socialism is to abolish factories?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,920
    Ratings:
    +29,088
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls

    You are of course free to understand socialism and capitalism in whatever ways you wish, but your views are not shared by economists, political scientists, or most other informed people. The definitions I gave of socialism and capitalism were straight out of the book.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    6,494
    Ratings:
    +2,455
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There are no purely capitalistic or purely socialist countries in existenceto my knowldge. Most are a mix of the two with the components consisting of the things the citizens of those countries deemed useful.
     
  15. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    The definition I gave is the standard Marxist definition. Given that Marx was the first to popularize these terms, and that almost all who have actually historically called themselves socialists have used these definitions, I maintain that they are correct. Socialists may support measures such as universal healthcare to the extent that they ameliorate the conditions of the working class, but state control of resources has nothing to do with socialism. The definition you've come up with is the result of defining capitalism to be the 'free market' (something which obviously can't truly exist, and so is useless for describing an economic system), and then conflating socialism with any measures which a state may take to restrict the market.

    Every country in the world is capitalist. A 'mix of socialism and capitalism' is an oxymoron. Once again, capitalism is not the 'free market', and socialism has nothing to do with state ownership of resources.
     
  16. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    23,583
    Ratings:
    +8,799
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    It's interesting to note that many community-owned services oftentimes contract out to privately owned corporate enterprises.
     
  17. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    6,494
    Ratings:
    +2,455
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I do not believe that is true. A government can have elements of both.
     
  18. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    That isn't true in the way you think it is. For the last time: Private ownership is not synonymous with capitalism, and "public" (state) ownership is not synonymous with socialism. The U.S., Scandinavian countries, China, and Cuba are all capitalist. Unless you follow Lenin's redefinition of the term to mean some sort of transitory stage between capitalism and communism, you cannot have both capitalism and socialism; having "both" doesn't make any sense.
     
  19. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,920
    Ratings:
    +29,088
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    Poppycock.
     
  20. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    What specifically do you disagree with?
     
Loading...