Not as Good as They Claim

[suncowiam]

Who told you that nonsense? Logic is the mechanical expression of fear, and desire, of greed, and the lust for power. It's the means through which our innate need/wish to control our environment to our own advantage, is realized.
Objectivity is an ideological illusion. Even if it exists, we have no "objective" access to it, or understanding of it.

What is your definition of logic?

I've already defined it in another comment.

Emotions are not a product of logic. If you are asserting this, you need to prove it first.

Emotions are a biological reaction. There is no basis of logic until further conscious examination. One could have a rational fear of tigers. But one could also have an irrational fear of clowns. Emotions have to be logically recognized and should not be blindly accepted.

 

[PureX]

What is your definition of logic?

I've already defined it in another comment.

Emotions are not a product of logic. If you are asserting this, you need to prove it first.

Emotions are a biological reaction. There is no basis of logic until further conscious examination. One could have a rational fear of tigers. But one could also have an irrational fear of clowns. Emotions have to be logically recognized and should not be blindly accepted.

What drives us is survival, not 'emotion', and not 'logic'. And humanity's greatest survival asset is an ability to understand how the environment around us works, so that we can manipulate it to our own advantage.

Science is not seeking "the truth". What science is seeking is an understanding of how things work. Because it is this understanding that enables our survival, first and foremost. Logic and curiosity are only a means to that end. And that end is motivated not by a thirst for truth, but by a desire to survive and thrive.

 

[whitemulberries]

Hi,

Such doctrines end up wasting a lot of good will that is sorely needed in better venues. They also hurt the emotional and mental readiness of their adherents.

Which 'better venues' are you referring to here? And how do these doctrines hurt the emotional and mental readiness of their adherents? Readiness for what?

But again, I would not call any of those doctrines "religions".

Why not? What's your definition of a religion?

Thanks,

wm

 

[whitemulberries]

Hi,

There is a difference between religion and Spirituality.

I agree.

Religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) are not Spiritual, but material.

Does a religion have to be one thing or another? Can it not be both?

They know nothing beyond this world.

That's a strong claim. What's your argument in support of it?

Hinduism and Buddhism are the only spiritual philosophy in the world, and out of these two, Hinduism is the only COMPLETE spiritual philosophy in the world, because Buddhism don't believe in God.

Are you saying that there is no materialism in Hinduism or Buddhism at all?

Hinduism will tell you that you are not this body, but spirit soul and eternal, which no religion says that.

What counts as Hinduism in your book? And are you really saying that Hinduism is the only belief system/way of life which makes this claim?

Thanks,

wm

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi,

Hi!

Which 'better venues' are you referring to here?

Those that acknowledge the reality of facts and seek proper solutions to real-world situations.

And how do these doctrines hurt the emotional and mental readiness of their adherents?

By various means, but mainly by encouraging attachment to promises and fragile hopes that are basically disconneted or even frankly at odds with reality.

I have met many a believer in afterlives or even in God that very much lost his way as a result of surrendering to such a belief. Some have caused serious, lasting harm to themselves and others.

Readiness for what?

To deal with reality and to make sober, informed decisions when the need arises.

Why not?

Exactly because they emphasize belief for the sake of belief so much. That is an unwanted distraction at best, and a serious impediment to actual religious practice far too often.

What's your definition of a religion?

Religions as I acknowledge them are doctrine and practices that seek to encourage, nurture and develop emotional maturity and moral virtue.

Thanks,

wm

You are welcome.

 

[whitemulberries]

Hi,

Those that acknowledge the reality of facts and seek proper solutions to real-world situations.

It's a pretty sweeping generalisation to say that all adherents of all these doctrines don't acknowledge facts or seek proper solutions to real-world problems, though perhaps that depends on what you call a 'proper' solution or even a real-world problem.

but mainly by encouraging attachment to promises and fragile hopes that are basically disconneted or even frankly at odds with reality.

Whose reality? And can you give me some concrete examples of what you have in mind here, perhaps in relation to my own religion, which is the one I know best?

I have met many a believer in afterlives or even in God that very much lost his way as a result of surrendering to such a belief. Some have caused serious, lasting harm to themselves and others.

Sure, I'm not denying that there are those who have lost their way. But for every one who has lost their way, there is one who has found their way, or stayed on their way.

To deal with reality and to make sober, informed decisions when the need arises.

I will ask you again, whose reality? And speaking purely personally, I'd like to think I am ready to make sober, informed decisions when the need arises; indeed, I'd like to think many of my ordinary fellow Muslims are ready to do likewise. On what basis do you say that we aren't so ready?

Religions as I acknowledge them are doctrine and practices that seek to encourage, nurture and develop emotional maturity and moral virtue.

Islam does that for me!

Thanks,

wm

 

[BilliardsBall]

So not believing in Santa Claus is a religion too?

Thanks for trying!

Not believing in a fictional character isn't a religion.

Having a religious styled faith that one has special knowledge (I know no god exists ANYWHERE in this universe despite my finite knowledge) is absolutely a religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Islam does that for me!

Thanks,

wm

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I very much doubt your statement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not believing in a fictional character isn't a religion.

Having a religious styled faith that one has special knowledge (I know no god exists ANYWHERE in this universe despite my finite knowledge) is absolutely a religion.

That makes no sense.

 

[suncowiam]

Not believing in a fictional character isn't a religion.

Having a religious styled faith that one has special knowledge (I know no god exists ANYWHERE in this universe despite my finite knowledge) is absolutely a religion.

Why does God any different from a fictional character? What exactly makes him different from Santa Claus?

How do I know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

 

[whitemulberries]

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I very much doubt your statement.

On what grounds?

 

[savagewind]

On what grounds?

 

[LuisDantas]

On what grounds?

Because I have learned quite a bit about what Islaam teaches in recent years.

It is simply way too centered on monotheism for the sake of monotheism.

 

[whitemulberries]

Because I have learned quite a bit about what Islaam teaches in recent years.

It is simply way too centered on monotheism for the sake of monotheism.

Can I enquire if you have ever been a Muslim?

 

[LuisDantas]

Can I enquire if you have ever been a Muslim?

Oh, no, never.

I have however spent a huge amount of time in the last few years attempting to learn from them.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why does God any different from a fictional character? What exactly makes him different from Santa Claus?

How do I know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

You can choose to have a religion where you believe Santa exists, just like you choose religious faith to believe, stubbornly despite a lack of omniscience, that God is nowhere in this universe.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. I'll help you:

1) Are you omniscient?

2) Then can you say with certainty there is no God?

3) Were you present at creation or original life evolution?

4) Then can you say with certainty there is no God?

5) Your logical choice is agnostic, your faith choice is atheism. Atheists have a sort of religious faith in play.

 

[LuisDantas]

It makes perfect sense. I'll help you:

1) Are you omniscient?

2) Then can you say with certainty there is no God?

3) Were you present at creation or original life evolution?

4) Then can you say with certainty there is no God?

5) Your logical choice is agnostic, your faith choice is atheism. Atheists have a sort of religious faith in play.

That is creative, I will give you as much.

Still rather absurd, nonetheless. You are taking for granted an entirely fictional set of premises, including that atheism needs a justification (which it doesn't) and that there is such a thing as religious significance in it.

 

[suncowiam]

You can choose to have a religion where you believe Santa exists, just like you choose religious faith to believe, stubbornly despite a lack of omniscience, that God is nowhere in this universe.

But who does choose to have a religion based on a possible existence of Santa Claus? Even religious people would think this is insane. You would only defend such actions to defend your own actions.

The issue with your logic is that I can plug in an infinite amount of fantasy objects there and it will hold true. No one can prove the non-existence of everything any person can think of. So no matter the object in question, your logic will always hold true. God is no more special than a purple eyed two feet unicorn.

 

[whitemulberries]

Oh, no, never.

That being the case, even all the studying and trying to understand Islam in the world from the outside can't prepare you for the spiritual life of a Muslim, and the spiritual growth that is not only possible but enabled by Islam. To be sure, 'hard' or 'pure' monotheism is a central tenet of Islam, but being a Muslim in a spiritual sense goes far, far beyond that, and that is not something, with respect, you can have insight into as someone who has never been a Muslim.