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norse cosmology
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granpa
Member
Ymir is mentioned in two books of the Prose Edda; Gylfaginning and Skáldskaparmál. Ymir is first mentioned in chapter 5 of the prior, in which High, Just-As-High, and Third tell Gangleri (the disguised mythical king Gylfi) about how all things came to be. The trio explain that the first world to exist was Muspell, a glowing, fiery southern region consisting of flames, uninhabitable by non-natives. After "many ages" Niflheimr was made, and within it lies a spring, Hvergelmir, from which flows twelve rivers.
Gangleri asks the three what things were like before mankind. High continues that these icy rivers, which are called Élivágar, ran so far from their spring source that the poisonous matter that flows with them became hard "like the clinker that comes from a furnace"—it turned to ice. And so, when this ice came to a halt and stopped flowing, the vapor that rose up from the poison went in the same direction and froze to rime. This rime increased, layer upon layer, across Ginnungagap.
Just-As-High adds that the northern part of Ginnungagap was heavy with ice and rime, and vapor and blowing came inward from this. Yet the southern part of Ginunngagap was clear on account of the sparks and molten flecks flying from Muspell. Third assesses that "just as from Niflheim there was coldness and all things grim, so what was facing close to Muspell was hot and bright, but Ginunngagap was as mild as a windless sky". Third adds that when the rime and hot air met, it thawed and dripped, and the liquid intensely dropped. This liquid fell into the shape of a man, and so he was named Ymir.
High explains that Ymir is the ancestor of all jötnar (specifically hrimthursar), and that it is said that when Ymir slept, he sweated, and from his left arm and right arm grew a male and a female, and his left leg produced a song with his right leg, and from them came generations
In Vafþrúðnismál Odin asks the Giant Vafþrúðnir about the origin of Ymir. Vafþrúðnir answers:
From Éliwaves
Eitrdrops splashed
that grew into a giant
who begat all families
from which all [giants] come
that is why we are easily angered
Eitr would of course be aither which means air
AETHER : Greek protogenos god of upper air & light ; mythology : AITHER
AITHER (or Aether) was the Protogenos (first-born elemental god) of the bright, glowing upper air of heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergelmir
In Norse mythology, Bergelmir (/bɛərˈjɛlmɪər/ bair-YEL-meer; Old Norse "Mountain Yeller" or "Bear Yeller")[1] is a frost giant, the son of giant Þrúðgelmir and the grandson of Ymir
According to the Gylfaginning section of the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, Bergelmir and his wife alone among the giants were the only survivors of the enormous deluge of blood which flowed from Ymir's wounds when he was killed by Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve. They escaped the sanguinary flood by climbing onto an object and subsequently became the progenitors of a new race of frost giants
Gangleri asks the three what things were like before mankind. High continues that these icy rivers, which are called Élivágar, ran so far from their spring source that the poisonous matter that flows with them became hard "like the clinker that comes from a furnace"—it turned to ice. And so, when this ice came to a halt and stopped flowing, the vapor that rose up from the poison went in the same direction and froze to rime. This rime increased, layer upon layer, across Ginnungagap.
Just-As-High adds that the northern part of Ginnungagap was heavy with ice and rime, and vapor and blowing came inward from this. Yet the southern part of Ginunngagap was clear on account of the sparks and molten flecks flying from Muspell. Third assesses that "just as from Niflheim there was coldness and all things grim, so what was facing close to Muspell was hot and bright, but Ginunngagap was as mild as a windless sky". Third adds that when the rime and hot air met, it thawed and dripped, and the liquid intensely dropped. This liquid fell into the shape of a man, and so he was named Ymir.
High explains that Ymir is the ancestor of all jötnar (specifically hrimthursar), and that it is said that when Ymir slept, he sweated, and from his left arm and right arm grew a male and a female, and his left leg produced a song with his right leg, and from them came generations
In Vafþrúðnismál Odin asks the Giant Vafþrúðnir about the origin of Ymir. Vafþrúðnir answers:
From Éliwaves
Eitrdrops splashed
that grew into a giant
who begat all families
from which all [giants] come
that is why we are easily angered
Eitr would of course be aither which means air
AETHER : Greek protogenos god of upper air & light ; mythology : AITHER
AITHER (or Aether) was the Protogenos (first-born elemental god) of the bright, glowing upper air of heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergelmir
In Norse mythology, Bergelmir (/bɛərˈjɛlmɪər/ bair-YEL-meer; Old Norse "Mountain Yeller" or "Bear Yeller")[1] is a frost giant, the son of giant Þrúðgelmir and the grandson of Ymir
According to the Gylfaginning section of the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, Bergelmir and his wife alone among the giants were the only survivors of the enormous deluge of blood which flowed from Ymir's wounds when he was killed by Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve. They escaped the sanguinary flood by climbing onto an object and subsequently became the progenitors of a new race of frost giants
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Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Granpa, that was fascinating thank you. My knowledge of myth is novice but I find it fascinating and praise the Gods often.
Do you think AETHER/AITHER could represent Æsir? This is the first time I've heard about the AETHER, not
dwelving to deep into Greek myth.
That could be the connection between the two beliefs which would be phenomenal, because they're
constantly related to one another and the Gods even seem similar at times.
If Zeus is The All Father or Thor's Greek counterpart it would be fun to try and figure out which Kingdom
Olympus is, unless it's a different Kingdom entirely.
Excellent discussion, I only thought Ginnungagap represented space before the cosmos was born from the
cataclysm of elements.
Do you think AETHER/AITHER could represent Æsir? This is the first time I've heard about the AETHER, not
dwelving to deep into Greek myth.
That could be the connection between the two beliefs which would be phenomenal, because they're
constantly related to one another and the Gods even seem similar at times.
If Zeus is The All Father or Thor's Greek counterpart it would be fun to try and figure out which Kingdom
Olympus is, unless it's a different Kingdom entirely.
Excellent discussion, I only thought Ginnungagap represented space before the cosmos was born from the
cataclysm of elements.
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granpa
Member
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granpa
Member
their opposites are the 100-handers
Hekatonkheires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hecaton-chires, or Hekaton-kheires (/ˌhɛkəˈtɒŋkəriːz/; Ancient Greek: Ἑκατόγ-χειρες
(listen) (help·info) "Hundred-Handed Ones", also with 50 heads, Latinised Centimani), were figures in an archaic stage of Greek mythology, three giants of incredible strength and ferocity that surpassed that of all Titans whom they helped overthrow
they are also known as cent-aurs (cent-χειρες
the sons of nephele (i.e. nephilim of niflheim)
Hekatonkheires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hecaton-chires, or Hekaton-kheires (/ˌhɛkəˈtɒŋkəriːz/; Ancient Greek: Ἑκατόγ-χειρες
(listen) (help·info) "Hundred-Handed Ones", also with 50 heads, Latinised Centimani), were figures in an archaic stage of Greek mythology, three giants of incredible strength and ferocity that surpassed that of all Titans whom they helped overthrowthey are also known as cent-aurs (cent-χειρες
the sons of nephele (i.e. nephilim of niflheim)
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Don't forget that Snorri Sturlson, besides being a horrible person, was a Christian reconcilling his beloved childhood stories with his faith. As a result, I take his accounts with a grain of salt.
Furthermore, the Eddic poems don't necessarily represent all of Germanic paganism, but one late variant of Norwegian paganism.
Furthermore, the Eddic poems don't necessarily represent all of Germanic paganism, but one late variant of Norwegian paganism.
It is. The Olympioi are different from the Aesir and Vanir. Even still, the Germanic equivalent to Zeus isn't Thor, but Tiw/Tyr/Zio.
In early Germanic paganism, Tiw was the Allfather God, not Wotan (Othin's German name). Tiw's name is linguistically derived from *Dyeus, which is also the same word that became the Sanskrit Dyaus, the Greek Zeus, the Roman Deus, the Celtic Dia. This pan-Into-European God is the Sky Father God.
But even though they share historical names and roles, these are different Deities.
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granpa
Member
Exodus 3:14 Biblos Interlinear Bible
Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
God said to Moses: I am Surtr and I am Ymir.
Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel: I am Sol.
Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
God said to Moses: I am Surtr and I am Ymir.
Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel: I am Sol.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
...please stop syncretizing based on bad reasoning. It hurts.
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Edit: Zeus and Thor we're both born through a nature deity/titan : Earth?
That is the only exclusive trait I had related between them other than the lightning, thunder and awesomeness.
I know the subject is cosmology, but, Celtic counterparts,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucellus
A lot of folk thin TOR is related to Heracles as well, their similarities are great as well.
Thank you, Grandpa, for the continued discussion, I had heard most of this information before.
"At a glance" the entire genealogy of the Gods, Interesting!
I'm not certain at this point if I accept the relation between Tyr and Zeus. I had learned Tyr was the chief
god, not Odin, although Odin does become the chief God through his sacrifice replacing the Tiwaz.
In my imagination, the way my mind created the image of the Gods, I guess, Odin and Zeus are a lot alike in
appearance, Scandinavian, while Thor is completely different but not Ares.
Thor is a huge individual with a short red Mohawk on occasion, clean shaven.
Fascinating personalities as well, I would like to share my imagination in the future I just need to
think of a way that won't become complete bollock.
The rest I have heard as well.
That is the only exclusive trait I had related between them other than the lightning, thunder and awesomeness.
I know the subject is cosmology, but, Celtic counterparts,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucellus
A lot of folk thin TOR is related to Heracles as well, their similarities are great as well.
Thank you, Grandpa, for the continued discussion, I had heard most of this information before.
"At a glance" the entire genealogy of the Gods, Interesting!
I'm not certain at this point if I accept the relation between Tyr and Zeus. I had learned Tyr was the chief
god, not Odin, although Odin does become the chief God through his sacrifice replacing the Tiwaz.
In my imagination, the way my mind created the image of the Gods, I guess, Odin and Zeus are a lot alike in
appearance, Scandinavian, while Thor is completely different but not Ares.
Thor is a huge individual with a short red Mohawk on occasion, clean shaven.
Fascinating personalities as well, I would like to share my imagination in the future I just need to
think of a way that won't become complete bollock.
The rest I have heard as well.
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Some songs says so, but there are songs that say Thor was born to Frigga.
Zeus is not awesome. He's a misogynistic prick.
It's a linguistic/role relationship accepted by pretty much all historians and comparative mythologists.
Remember to separate your idea of how the Gods look from how they are traditionally depicted.
Zeus is depicted with the ideal man's body according to the Ancient Greeks. Odin, on the other hand, more closely resembles Gandalf the Gray.
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Thank you, Riverwolf.
So Zeus could be depicted as Ulysses S. Grant and Odin as a biker as well as Jesus, Heimdallr as Blackbeard?
I kid, that's totally blasphemous, like calling God a prick, what a hoot it is.
My imagination is wild, seems a bit blasphemous, but I haven't intentionally cursed a God or called one a prick....
Religion and Politics?
So Zeus could be depicted as Ulysses S. Grant and Odin as a biker as well as Jesus, Heimdallr as Blackbeard?
I kid, that's totally blasphemous, like calling God a prick, what a hoot it is.
My imagination is wild, seems a bit blasphemous, but I haven't intentionally cursed a God or called one a prick....
Religion and Politics?
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Doesn't look like blasphemy to me. It's really hard to blaspheme the form of a god who turns into birds and beasts to have sex.
Quit stroking your bruised ego.
Blasphemy is a Judeo-Christian concept. As far as I know, the Teutons didn't have that concept.
As long as I don't try to elevate myself to the same level as any God (aka, commit hubris), I can call the Gods I don't like whatever I want. Zeus may be a prick, but we're all pricks in our own ways. ^_^
Odin is probably closer to that old hobo who hardly ever speaks and rarely asks for anything, but when he does talk, there's something about his voice and speech that forces you to listen.
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Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Right, my ego is fine if not pompous.
Stop being irate.
RIght on.
Back on subject, cosmology was a part of per-monotheistic beliefs. That's not saying most common
people understood it as most of the beliefs were for the high class to royal family
from what I learned elsewhere.
That being said I do not think the Gods were 'aliens' as they lived here prior to Man, may still
live here.
I'm not into Sitchins work, I may look into another day.
granpa
Member
I added niflhel to the image above.
niflhel is described as the lowest of the 9 worlds.
Niflhel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Gylfaginning by Snorri Sturluson, Gylfi, the old king of Scandinavia, receives an education in Norse mythology from Odin himself in the guise of three men.
Gylfi learns from Odin (as Þriði) that Odin gave the first man his spirit, and that the spirits of just men will live forever in Gimlé, whereas those of evil men will live forever in Niflhel:
“ "The greatest of all is this: that he made man, and gave him the spirit, which shall live and never perish, though the flesh-frame rot to mould, or burn to ashes; and all men shall live, such as are just in action, and be with himself in the place called Gimlé. But evil men go to Hel and thence down to the Misty Hel; and that is down in the ninth world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology
In the Poetic Edda, the poem Alvíssmál has a stanza that lists six worlds, clarifying each 'homeworld' (heimr) is the realm of a different family of beings.
Þórr asks: What is the wind named 'in every world' (heimi hverjum í)? Álvíss answers:
Alvíssmál 20
It is named 'wind' with the Humans.
But 'waverer' with [the Æsir] the gods.
[The Vanir] the enchanting-rulers call it 'neigher' [making sounds like a horse].
The Jötnar 'shrieker' [during deadly arctic storms].
The Álfar 'whistler'.
In Hel, [the dead] call it 'squall' [a sharp increase in wind speed before a rain].
Thus there are at least six worlds, each being the homeworld of a particular family of beings.
Inferably, they correspond to the following place names mentioned elsewhere in the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda.
1. Menn (humans): Miðgarðr.
2. Aesir (gods): Ásgarðr.
3. Vanir (gods): Vanaheimr.
4. Jötnar (giants): Jötunheimr.
5. Álfar (elves): Álfheimr.
6. Náir (corpses, the other world of the dead): Hel.
Based on this it would appear possible that there are
3 worlds associated with midgard (earth) and
3 worlds associated with niflheim (hades) and presumable
3 more worlds associated with muspelheim (heaven)
In the poem Alvíssmál, the god Thor questions the dwarf Alvíss about the sun, asking him what the sun is called in each of the worlds.
Alvíss responds that it is called
"sun" by mankind,
"sunshine" by the gods,
"Dvalinn's deluder" by the dwarves,
"everglow" by the jötnar,
"the lovely wheel" by the elves, and
"all-shining" by the "sons of the Æsir"
In stanza 13 of the poem Alvíssmál, the god Thor questions the dwarf Alvíss about the moon,
asking him what the moon is called in each of the worlds.
Alvíss responds that it is called
"moon" by mankind,
"fiery one" by the gods,
"the whirling wheel" in Hel,
"the hastener" by the jötnar,
"the shiner" by the dwarves, and
"the counter of years" by the elves
niflhel is described as the lowest of the 9 worlds.
Niflhel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Gylfaginning by Snorri Sturluson, Gylfi, the old king of Scandinavia, receives an education in Norse mythology from Odin himself in the guise of three men.
Gylfi learns from Odin (as Þriði) that Odin gave the first man his spirit, and that the spirits of just men will live forever in Gimlé, whereas those of evil men will live forever in Niflhel:
“ "The greatest of all is this: that he made man, and gave him the spirit, which shall live and never perish, though the flesh-frame rot to mould, or burn to ashes; and all men shall live, such as are just in action, and be with himself in the place called Gimlé. But evil men go to Hel and thence down to the Misty Hel; and that is down in the ninth world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology
In the Poetic Edda, the poem Alvíssmál has a stanza that lists six worlds, clarifying each 'homeworld' (heimr) is the realm of a different family of beings.
Þórr asks: What is the wind named 'in every world' (heimi hverjum í)? Álvíss answers:
Alvíssmál 20
It is named 'wind' with the Humans.
But 'waverer' with [the Æsir] the gods.
[The Vanir] the enchanting-rulers call it 'neigher' [making sounds like a horse].
The Jötnar 'shrieker' [during deadly arctic storms].
The Álfar 'whistler'.
In Hel, [the dead] call it 'squall' [a sharp increase in wind speed before a rain].
Thus there are at least six worlds, each being the homeworld of a particular family of beings.
Inferably, they correspond to the following place names mentioned elsewhere in the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda.
1. Menn (humans): Miðgarðr.
2. Aesir (gods): Ásgarðr.
3. Vanir (gods): Vanaheimr.
4. Jötnar (giants): Jötunheimr.
5. Álfar (elves): Álfheimr.
6. Náir (corpses, the other world of the dead): Hel.
Based on this it would appear possible that there are
3 worlds associated with midgard (earth) and
3 worlds associated with niflheim (hades) and presumable
3 more worlds associated with muspelheim (heaven)
In the poem Alvíssmál, the god Thor questions the dwarf Alvíss about the sun, asking him what the sun is called in each of the worlds.
Alvíss responds that it is called
"sun" by mankind,
"sunshine" by the gods,
"Dvalinn's deluder" by the dwarves,
"everglow" by the jötnar,
"the lovely wheel" by the elves, and
"all-shining" by the "sons of the Æsir"
In stanza 13 of the poem Alvíssmál, the god Thor questions the dwarf Alvíss about the moon,
asking him what the moon is called in each of the worlds.
Alvíss responds that it is called
"moon" by mankind,
"fiery one" by the gods,
"the whirling wheel" in Hel,
"the hastener" by the jötnar,
"the shiner" by the dwarves, and
"the counter of years" by the elves
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