None have Suffered More

[Truthseeker]

For Baha'is, that includes Buddha. Baha'is seem to have a need for the people they claim to be manifestations/messengers to have been rejected and put through great pain and suffering at the hands of the religious leaders of the previous religion.

The Buddha - Wikipedia

Understanding the historical person
Scholars are hesitant to make claims about the historical facts of the Buddha's life. Most of them accept that the Buddha lived, taught, and founded a monastic order during the Mahajanapada, and during the reign of Bimbisara, the ruler of the Magadha empire; and died during the early years of the reign of Ajatashatru, who was the successor of Bimbisara, thus making him a younger contemporary of Mahavira, the Jain tirthankara.[56][57]

There is less consensus on the veracity of many details contained in traditional biographies,[58][59] as "Buddhist scholars [...] have mostly given up trying to understand the historical person."[60] The earliest versions of Buddhist biographical texts that we have already contain many supernatural, mythical or legendary elements. In the 19th century some scholars simply omitted these from their accounts of the life, so that "the image projected was of a Buddha who was a rational, socratic teacher—a great person perhaps, but a more or less ordinary human being". More recent scholars tend to see such demythologisers as remythologisers, "creating a Buddha that appealed to them, by eliding one that did not".

With so many supernatural, mythical, or legendary elements what can we conclude on the question on whether He suffered or not?

 

[Truthseeker]

Sorry, I can't quite parse that first sentence...

Now we can consider they know all what will happen, prior to giving the Message.

What he meant "Now we can consider they know all that will happen, prior to giving the Message." A typo.

 

[Truthseeker]

@TransmutingSoul ,

Your messenger was imprisoned twice, once for 4 months, once for 2 months? And he was exiled from opulence and reduced to poverty. He lost his son to a tragic accident while in exile.

Yes, treatment in the prisons sounds horrifying. But I want to get the details right. Besides 6 months, and exile, and his son's death, what else?

See this, I'm tired of posting it:

None have Suffered More

 

[Truthseeker]

Offer away but the issue is that your saying none have suffered more than people who were ignore. Holocaust? Never heard of it but woe for the ignored prophets, their suffering is so great!

See this:

None have Suffered More

 

[sayak83]

Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 233)

So basically, according to the Bahai, manifestations of God are cry babies. Got it.

 

[Truthseeker]

You completely ignore my criticsm about your lack of moral concern for human beings. Are you so self-absorbed in your dogma that you are unable to feel anything for human beings?

We're all tired of responding to your slander.

 

[sayak83]

The Buddha - Wikipedia

Understanding the historical person
Scholars are hesitant to make claims about the historical facts of the Buddha's life. Most of them accept that the Buddha lived, taught, and founded a monastic order during the Mahajanapada, and during the reign of Bimbisara, the ruler of the Magadha empire; and died during the early years of the reign of Ajatashatru, who was the successor of Bimbisara, thus making him a younger contemporary of Mahavira, the Jain tirthankara.[56][57]

There is less consensus on the veracity of many details contained in traditional biographies,[58][59] as "Buddhist scholars [...] have mostly given up trying to understand the historical person."[60] The earliest versions of Buddhist biographical texts that we have already contain many supernatural, mythical or legendary elements. In the 19th century some scholars simply omitted these from their accounts of the life, so that "the image projected was of a Buddha who was a rational, socratic teacher—a great person perhaps, but a more or less ordinary human being". More recent scholars tend to see such demythologisers as remythologisers, "creating a Buddha that appealed to them, by eliding one that did not".

With so many supernatural, mythical, or legendary elements what can we conclude on the question on whether He suffered or not?

There is not a single reference anywhere in the entire early literature (or late literature) of Buddha ever being persecuted for his beliefs. Despite the fact that not much can be known about Buddha historically, it is clear that he was not persecuted as it is clear that he was not born in Australia or used the internet.

 

[Truthseeker]

So basically, according to the Bahai, manifestations of God are cry babies. Got it.

Did you actually fairly assess what was said here?

 

[Truthseeker]

There is not a single reference anywhere in the entire early literature (or late literature) of Buddha ever being persecuted for his beliefs. Despite the fact that not much can be known about Buddha historically, it is clear that he was not persecuted as it is clear that he was not born in Australia or used the internet.

I don't think that you did read what I quoted previously if you think persecution is all there is to it. I recommend actually reading and considering it.

 

[sayak83]

Did you actually fairly assess what was said here?

Yes. It was a fair assessment.
It is basically the same thing as saying a billionaire's suffering for 1 hour in summer heat is more than that of an ordinary laborer doing backbreaking work day in and day out in the same heat because the former has never spent a moment away from the AC while the latter, poor soul, is used to it.
What a morally repugnant argument.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"The material way" is the place to start.

Ignoring the material way is ... lemmings.

Well I am aware of many events, but also see much has remained unrecorded, as Baha'u'llah did not want to overburden our souls, I see He has offered this.

"By the righteousness of God! Every morning I arose from My bed, I discovered the hosts of countless afflictions massed behind My door; and every night when I lay down, lo! My heart was torn with agony at what it had suffered from the fiendish cruelty of its foes. With every piece of bread the Ancient Beauty breaketh is coupled the assault of a fresh affliction, and with every drop He drinketh is mixed the bitterness of the most woeful of trials. He is preceded in every step He taketh by an army of unforeseen calamities, while in His rear follow legions of agonizing sorrows.

Such is My plight, wert thou to ponder it in thine heart. Let not, however, thy soul grieve over that which God hath rained down upon Us. Merge thy will in His pleasure, for We have, at no time, desired anything whatsoever except His Will, and have welcomed each one of His irrevocable decrees. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 119-120.

A couple to start with. Bahaullah was poisoned by his half brother and the effects of this poisoning remained with him. It can be seen in the Writings of His tablets, the before and after.

Also he faced the punishment by bastinado - a form of torture that involves being beaten on the soles of the feet with a rod, then you are made to walk, note that He intervened to spare His companions the bastinado and He alone received it and was inflicted by sixty strokes.

I see these suffering are much more than these events.

I see the same for Abraham and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, to name a few.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

With so many supernatural, mythical, or legendary elements what can we conclude on the question on whether He suffered or not?

It is an interesting question, but Tony was positively concluding that Buddha did suffer worse than ordinary humans according to my understanding, so you appear to be backing away from justifying that conclusion here.

In my opinion

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is an interesting question, but Tony was positively concluding that Buddha did suffer worse than ordinary humans according to my understanding, so you appear to be backing away from justifying that conclusion here.

In my opinion

In the context that Buddha is One with all the Messengers. Not that it is recorded.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

Could it be that a Messenger is connected to all those that suffer,

Nope, logistically that's just a no no

 

[Vinayaka]

What if you know that the Message God gave you to give, will result in that happening to most that embrace that Message?

I also offer that Baha'u'llah informed those that embraced the Message, what would happen to them.

So why did they continue and embrace the Message in the knowledge of those sufferings?

The topic is not so cut and dry.

Regards Tony

You're dismissing this person's story in favour of stating your message again. How sad.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 232)

Just because somebody stated something doesn't make it true. You're free to believe it, but most people wouldn't.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is not a single reference anywhere in the entire early literature (or late literature) of Buddha ever being persecuted for his beliefs. Despite the fact that not much can be known about Buddha historically, it is clear that he was not persecuted as it is clear that he was not born in Australia or used the internet.

So too for Krishna, although he's no manifestation. But since the Baha'i have him on their list, he's worth considering as well.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

This is not in debate, really it is not, I agree.

But why would it be a Messenger suffers more than all we can suffer? My thought is they take all this suffering on themselves, willingly accept it on behalf of all humanity.

This is what I am thinking.

Regards Tony

Tony, why do you think it works?

For example, Jesus's suffering has failed to alleviate the suffering of Christians. They suffer too (cancer, fatal accidents, death, depression, etc) - no different than non-Christian or even atheists. A few years ago, a bunch of people praying in a Church were shot down inside the Church here in Texas. Clearly, Jesus or his sufferings did not help.

From everything we know, Jesus's pains had no impact at all on his believers.

As I see, this is exactly why many religious views take the clever approach of deferring benefits to the afterlife - as they cannot be verified. This allows religions to stay credible in spite of the struggles of everyday life and the various tragedies that happen around the world (all of which show that we are on our own, with no divine help)

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Yet how many movies are made these days using this very principle,

None. I can't think of a single movie where the main character, the "Hero" is ignored by people and throws some whiney ****-baby tantrum saying "No one's listening to me about this super important thing I believe, my suffering is WORSE than anyone in the history of ever!" I mean, are these prophets going to storm up to their room, scream down "You're HORRIBLE!" and slam the door before pouring out their angst into their diaries?

It does not need to be offensive,

Quite right, it does not have to be offensive. You could have just left it at "Great is their suffering". That would have been far better, if not still debatable. But no, instead you went full-bore with the "No one has ever suffered like my prophet." As exampled, 11 million people in the 1940's would like a very strong word with you.

--------------------------

Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated

Yeah I don't really care. I hold zero validity for his words, or his self-indulgent, self-imposed claims of great suffering. I'm not going to engage in some nonsense thought experiment predicated on "what if's" and "let's suppose" to try and justify such an outlandish and egregious claim. Especially when your example is "people are used to their suffering, and bahaullah is so pure that of course he suffered more!" That's just... disgusting. And victim blaming. And just incredibly ignorantly naïve.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men.

Yeah, prove that he's a manifestation of your god, and not just another bearded old dude.

See this:

No.

 

[F1fan]

We're all tired of responding to your slander.

It's not slander when it is true. You Baha'i admit to accepting the bigotry of Baha'u'llah, and some even say you Baha'i have no choice, you can't oppose immoral doctrines in your religion. So to be a Baha'i means to accept bigotry, and i don't understand that. The Baha'i certainly avoid this topic, probably because they recognize it is a serious moral flaw in their Messenger. Can this bigotry be defended morally? No. All the Baha'i can say is that your Messenger says so.