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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Shoghi Effendi quoted Baha'u'llah as saying this:

"Though aware that they would lead to tribulations, and be the cause of troubles and afflictive trials, He, solely as a token of His loving-kindness and favor, and for the purpose of quickening the dead and of manifesting the Cause of the Lord of all Names and Attributes, and of redeeming all who are on earth, hath closed His eyes to His own well-being and borne that which no other person hath borne or will bear.”
Shoghi Effendi, "The Promised Day is Come", 112

It took some doing to find this. I didn't know where to find it. I looked under "suffer" and that led my finding Adib Taherzadeh quoting this, which led to Shoghi Effendi quoting it.

That is not the one I remember, it is in the writings if Baha'u'llah, but I may have the wrong word.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Shoghi Effendi quoted Baha'u'llah as saying this:

"Though aware that they would lead to tribulations, and be the cause of troubles and afflictive trials, He, solely as a token of His loving-kindness and favor, and for the purpose of quickening the dead and of manifesting the Cause of the Lord of all Names and Attributes, and of redeeming all who are on earth, hath closed His eyes to His own well-being and borne that which no other person hath borne or will bear.”
Shoghi Effendi, "The Promised Day is Come", 112

It took some doing to find this. I didn't know where to find it. I looked under "suffer" and that led my finding Adib Taherzadeh quoting this, which led to Shoghi Effendi quoting it.

Tribulations may be the key word.

."By the righteousness of god! The tribulations We have sustained are such that any pen that recounteth them cannot but be overwhelmed
with anguish. No one of them that truly believe and uphold the unity of God can bear the burden of their recital. So great have
been our sufferings that even the eyes of Our enemies have wept over Us, and beyond them those of every discerning person." --Baha'u'llah

As also posted above, the reason Baha'u'llah accepted these tribulations He explains:

"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most
mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty."

Baha'u'llah offered "The Lord Himself beareth witness to the truth of My words. We have sustained the weight of all calamities to sanctify you from all earthly corruption, and ye are yet indifferent." "Fix your gaze upon Him
Who is the Temple of God amongst men. He, in truth, has offered up His life as a ransom for the redemption of the world."

This is my thought, that all the Messengers "sustained the weight of all calamities".

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
"I saw," He wrote in a Tablet, "the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: `We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!' They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: `...Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld.... Be patient, be patient.'... They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn." -- Bahá'u'lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 147
I see that in context that this in the last days when He was in Baghdad, before His half-brother and his followers caused Him so much anguish.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see that in context that this in the last days when He was in Baghdad, before His half-brother and his followers caused Him so much anguish.

Yes these were very sad and times of great distress.

The OP is born out of the thought of post #62 , that all the Messengers have "sustained the weight of all calamities".

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That somehow makes it more offensive; congratulations!

Yet how many movies are made these days using this very principle, the hero fighting the forces of darkness, taking the fight upon their own selves.

It does not need to be offensive, one can contemplate the topic to explore further understanding of what is suffering and why do we suffer?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I personally know a woman who was forced to watch her husband get axed to death, her two teenagers, a boy and a girl, get raped repeatedly, only to be followed by her own rape. I concur with you totally. These 'prophets' didn't know what suffering was, and to claim they did outsuffer the many who have suffered is in poor taste. Cruel joke indeed.

What if you know that the Message God gave you to give, will result in that happening to most that embrace that Message?

I also offer that Baha'u'llah informed those that embraced the Message, what would happen to them.

So why did they continue and embrace the Message in the knowledge of those sufferings?

The topic is not so cut and dry.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I personally know a woman who was forced to watch her husband get axed to death, her two teenagers, a boy and a girl, get raped repeatedly, only to be followed by her own rape. I concur with you totally. These 'prophets' didn't know what suffering was, and to claim they did outsuffer the many who have suffered is in poor taste. Cruel joke indeed.
Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 232)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.
Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 232)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, I'm certainly not saddened from being deaf, ill, blind, a fool, and everything else attributed to me (and you, and many) for simply being a non-Baha'i. Now, that lady I mentioned, a friend, that is sad. She now has dementia, which is probably a blessing in disguise.

This OP is about the Messengers and what they suffer from giving a Message, how could it be greater than what we may have seen?

It is highly probable they do suffer more than we can appreciate,but we will not find out if we do not look.

I see @Truthseeker posted a relevant passage.

Regards Tony
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 232)
Just another example of how apologists will use any sort of nonsensical argument to support absurd claims of their chosen religious leaders. Its a wonder to me how people can be convinced by such egregious arguments!
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I haven't seen any suffering a religious icon has experienced that is unique to them, or hasn't been compounded by being an out-group different to that religious icon.

I am not awed by martyrs who seek glory in their suffering and less so who think suffering is a virtue added to their character, as it causes apathy and indifference to the suffering of others.

How deeply have you looked at the topic?

Now is the chance to explore it!

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'd be keen for the OP to outline the suffering of Muhammad.

[Edit]
Just realised I didn't quote the OP, so @TransmutingSoul wouldn't have received an alert. Apologies!!
[/Edit]

I have not studied the sufferings of Muhammad, I would hope that a Muslim may read this and offer what Muhammad faced.

All the Messengers do know what giving the Message will result in, as such they take on their shoulders all that happens to those that choose to Love and follow that Message.

So ask yourself, how would you cope knowing the torture people will face because you gave a Message?

I see the empathy of the Messengers enables them to suffer with all those people, but I also see a connection of Spirit.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree that with this thread he has invited a hornet's nest.

Would not the Message itslef result in a hornets nest? I am sure you are aware of such quotes.

It's a great topic if people choose to pursue it, I see it is a key in embracing all we can face in this life, it is a key to our happiness, no matter what confronts us in this life.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just another example of how apologists will use any sort of nonsensical argument to support absurd claims of their chosen religious leaders. Its a wonder to me how people can be convinced by such egregious arguments!

There is many ways to think about this subject, that was but one way.

Happy to discuss the topic with you, if you so choose.

I will discuss it in any light offered.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Aside from the usual point that the Buddha was not a messenger or prophet from a deity, in the common use of the word "suffering" the Buddha did not suffer (aside from a period of self-imposed strict asceticism). As to the word meaning the broader dukkha, he supposedly achieved liberation from this at Bodh Gaya - which then set in motion the teaching that we now call Buddhism.

The Buddha - Wikipedia

Understanding the historical person
Scholars are hesitant to make claims about the historical facts of the Buddha's life. Most of them accept that the Buddha lived, taught, and founded a monastic order during the Mahajanapada, and during the reign of Bimbisara, the ruler of the Magadha empire; and died during the early years of the reign of Ajatashatru, who was the successor of Bimbisara, thus making him a younger contemporary of Mahavira, the Jain tirthankara.[56][57]

There is less consensus on the veracity of many details contained in traditional biographies,[58][59] as "Buddhist scholars [...] have mostly given up trying to understand the historical person."[60] The earliest versions of Buddhist biographical texts that we have already contain many supernatural, mythical or legendary elements. In the 19th century some scholars simply omitted these from their accounts of the life, so that "the image projected was of a Buddha who was a rational, socratic teacher—a great person perhaps, but a more or less ordinary human being". More recent scholars tend to see such demythologisers as remythologisers, "creating a Buddha that appealed to them, by eliding one that did not".

With so many supernatural, mythical, or legendary elements what can we conclude on the question on whether He suffered or not?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Seems more hard to discuss when it begins with the claim that no one has suffered more than people who others just didn't listen to.
Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 233)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
If they are messengers and are tapped into God’s wisdom, then they’re better able to the average person to cope with intolerance and insults and shame, and whatever else comes their way from other people who doubt their claims of some sort of spiritual enlightenment.
Here and in many other Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has stated that no one on earth has been, or will be, subjected to so much suffering as He. It may be difficult for those who are not fully familiar with the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh to accept such a statement. They may argue that there have been many people who were afflicted with unbearable tortures and life-long sufferings. In order to appreciate the words of Bahá'u'lláh let us suppose that there was a community somewhere in the world whose people were savage, barbarous and brutally cruel. Those born and brought up within such a community, who had lived there all their lives and had never been in touch with civilization would find life to be normal. Although to the outsider the standard would seem to be very cruel, yet for the members of that community every event that took place in their midst would be a natural happening and accepted as such. As in every other community, there must be moments of joy and comfort as well as sadness and suffering for the people who belonged to this society. However, should a noble person who had lived in a highly civilized society be forced to join this uncivilized community, it is only natural that he would suffer much more than the rest. Because he had been used to a far superior standard in his life, it could be said of him that he had undergone such cruelties and hardships, both mental and physical, that no one else in that community had experienced.

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 233)
 
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