Non-toxic masculinity

[Meow Mix]

When toxic masculinity is brought up, there are inevitably those who will confuse the term with saying something like, "masculinity is toxic."

I'm reminded of this excellent meme:
[GALLERY=media, 9498]Ntm by Meow Mix posted Jun 24, 2021 at 1:36 AM[/GALLERY]

Now, I'm of course inclined to believe that things like "being polite" and "convictions" aren't unique to masculinity (the same could be said for everything on the list); but I'm fairly certain that the wholesome people depicted in the meme do identify as masculine.

So while virtuous traits aren't exclusive to masculinity or femininity (just like toxic ones aren't, either), it could be said at least that this is what toxic masculinity doesn't look like.

Edit: So I didn't phrase this very well, and I will try again: I think the meme would be better served by showing good examples of when masculine-identifying people do something specifically in opposition to toxic masculinity rather than just listing virtues that could apply to any gender. It's still good to see virtuous masculine-identifying people other than that; but the point would be better served if a meme were like "this is a toxic masculinity behavior, here is a masculine person not doing that."

 

[Meow Mix]

Also, I wish the meme included more men that don't look like Chris Evans and Chadwick Boseman to sort of steer away from the idea that masculinity = absurdly fit bodies, as a side note.

 

[Meow Mix]

I would add Patrick Stewart for instance. That man is a treasure, very masculine, very wholesome, wouldn't give the implication that you have to look like Chris Evans to be masculine in terms of body structure (not saying Patrick Stewart isn't handsome of course).

Who would you add?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I especially like Mr. Rogers, because he was such a great example of what a positive and healthy masculinity can be and look like that he was beloved by generations of children. Albeit he was very gifted with children, it shows men can be great with kids just as well.

 

[ChristineM]

I would add Patrick Stewart for instance. That man is a treasure, very masculine, very wholesome, wouldn't give the implication that you have to look like Chris Evans to be masculine in terms of body structure (not saying Patrick Stewart isn't handsome of course).

Who would you add?

Patrick Stewart... Yay...

I hear he had a rough childhood with an abusive father. Lucky it's not rubbed off on him.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Question...the traits listed in the OP appear to be simply...traits.
I get that dividing things between 'masculine' and 'feminine' is always going to be a generalisation/overstated.
But what does everyone think a 'masculine trait' is vs more simply a trait held by a male?

 

[Meow Mix]

Question...the traits listed in the OP appear to be simply...traits.
I get that dividing things between 'masculine' and 'feminine' is always going to be a generalisation/overstated.

I tried to comment on this a little bit, but probably didn't do very well.

I said:

Now, I'm of course inclined to believe that things like "being polite" and "convictions" aren't unique to masculinity (the same could be said for everything on the list); but I'm fairly certain that the wholesome people depicted in the meme do identify as masculine.

So while virtuous traits aren't exclusive to masculinity or femininity (just like toxic ones aren't, either), it could be said at least that this is what toxic masculinity doesn't look like.

I think I was trying to say something similar: these are just traits. So I tried to just make it more about "what toxic masculinity is not."

But what does everyone think a 'masculine trait' is vs more simply a trait held by a male?

Seems to me that people are masculine or feminine if they a) like gender and b) feel like one of them, regardless of traits. There are historical categorizations, but that's problematic like crazy (edit: and indeed, usually how toxic masculinity is defined: toxic adherence to culturally perceived conceptions of masculinity that lead to harm)

So really, the meme format would probably be better by listing how various masculine-identifying people don't exemplify traits specific to toxic masculinity rather than just listing virtues.

Good post, good question.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Question...the traits listed in the OP appear to be simply...traits.
I get that dividing things between 'masculine' and 'feminine' is always going to be a generalisation/overstated.
But what does everyone think a 'masculine trait' is vs more simply a trait held by a male?

I had to think about this for a bit.

I'd say that a "masculine trait" is a trait that's part of the gender expression of someone whose gender identity is that of a man.

(And yes, it's very possible for the same traits to be part of the gender expression of some other gender, or possessed by someone without it being part of their gender expression)

 

[Meow Mix]

I had to think about this for a bit.

I'd say that a "masculine trait" is a trait that's part of the gender expression of someone whose gender identity is that of a man.

(And yes, it's very possible for the same traits to be part of the gender expression of some other gender, or possessed by someone without it being part of their gender expression)

I like this answer a lot too.

 

[Polymath257]

As I see it, there are *human* traits. Some are positive and some are negative. While testosterone can certainly amplify some negative traits, that is hardly the only hormone active, even in those with testes.

All I think the OP requires is showing men acting in positive ways: being helpful, being responsible, being knowledgeable, being decisive when its required, etc.

But non-toxic feminine traits would look very similar.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I see it, there are *human* traits. Some are positive and some are negative. While testosterone can certainly amplify some negative traits, that is hardly the only hormone active, even in those with testes.

All I think the OP requires is showing men acting in positive ways: being helpful, being responsible, being knowledgeable, being decisive when its required, etc.

But non-toxic feminine traits would look very similar.

Healthy, positive traits are pretty much tend to be the same in both men and women. We just tend to go about viewing things, thinking about what's going on, and performing these actions is different ways. Such as concern for a child. Both the mother and father are very capable of expressing this, but due to hormones, brain structures, upbringings, socialization, and all those other factors it's likely the means may vary to reach the same ends.

 

[Quagmire]

I would add Patrick Stewart for instance. That man is a treasure, very masculine, very wholesome, wouldn't give the implication that you have to look like Chris Evans to be masculine in terms of body structure (not saying Patrick Stewart isn't handsome of course).

Who would you add?

Not sure. Does it have to be a Marvel character?

 

[Meow Mix]

Not sure. Does it have to be a Marvel character?

Negative Ghostrider (see what I did there), could be anyone that actively works against toxic masculinity traits

 

[Meow Mix]

As I see it, there are *human* traits. Some are positive and some are negative. While testosterone can certainly amplify some negative traits, that is hardly the only hormone active, even in those with testes.

All I think the OP requires is showing men acting in positive ways: being helpful, being responsible, being knowledgeable, being decisive when its required, etc.

But non-toxic feminine traits would look very similar.

This has since been clarified more in the thread. My OP wasn't originally very clear I think.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This has since been clarified more in the thread. My OP wasn't originally very clear I think.

I thought your OP was fine. It prompted me to think, which is a rare and beautiful thing.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I had to think about this for a bit.

I'd say that a "masculine trait" is a trait that's part of the gender expression of someone whose gender identity is that of a man.

(And yes, it's very possible for the same traits to be part of the gender expression of some other gender, or possessed by someone without it being part of their gender expression)

It's an interesting thought. I don't have boys (three girls). I also coach girls sport, rather than boys. But where possible I try to demonstrate and live by what I've always thought was 'non-toxic masculinity'.

The interesting thing for me...and I have no answer for this...is whether it's 'masculinity' at all. Or just 'humanity'.

Tentatively I'm edging on the side of masculinity. I think to do otherwise edges towards straight egalitarianism. Not to say egalitarianism is not a noble goal, but as I've become older I've started to think of feminism as a necessary part of the path to egalitarianism (as an ideal we may never reach).

Hoping that makes sense. But I'm wondering if we can have a meaningful concept of feminism without a meaningful (or positive) concept of masculinity?

Acknowledging readily that much of what I was taught in my life about being masculine was unhelpful to me and those around me.