Non-existence vs an unknown afterlife

[Roguish]

There is no upper limit to how terrible an afterlife might be. Finding a silver lining just means there's an even worse option in which that little scrap of hope isn't applicable.

Well said. And from that it follows that hope (i.e. the silver lining) is a dangerous thing... because it makes you hold on, makes you accept more afterlife, and more, and more. And it exposes you to the risk of being deceived: Evil knows perfectly well how to prey on our hunger for hope. It is like a carrot on a stick, by which we are drawn ever deeper down the rabbit hole.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is a confusion of terminology. Some people use the term Soul to refer to Self-Consciousness, some use it to refer to the Crystal Ball in which Self-Consciousness appears. Of course everyone's Crystal Ball is eternal, for it stands entirely outside of time. So clearly that's what you're referring to when you speak of the Soul. However, in my earlier post I was speaking of Self-Consciousness, which is not necessarily eternal, but only immortal -- i.e. it survives death for as long as it desires that.

I don’t know what you mean by Self-Consciousness and why you think it is not eternal. I believe that the soul is responsible for consciousness, period. It is the consciousness we all possess and it can never die.

I do not doubt that. Bahai is certainly an authentic, revealed religion. Yet, like all religions from the Old World, it does not deal with the treacherous traps that the modern, technological world presents. (I'm not talking about Youtube addiction or Facebook anxiety here. I'm talking of things far worse.)

What treacherous traps are you referring to and why do you think that the Baha’i Faith has no means to deal with them? So what do you believe is the means to deal with these traps?

What do you mean by Old World and why do you think the Baha’i Faith is from the Old World?

That is a great problem. If you assume there is noone trying to trick you, you are making the job so much easier for the agents of Evil. Do you deny Evil altogether, or do you deny that it can trick you even if you sincerely believe in God and sincerely practice your religion?

I guess you are referring to Satan or the devil? Baha’is do not believe in the devil. We believe that Satan refers to the lower material nature of man that tricks some people into following their lower selfish animal nature.

“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168

 

[Trailblazer]

God doesn't let Evil run things. Satan is a traitor who received his understanding of man and Creation when he (Satan) was still on God's team. Then he broke away, setting up his own shop dedicated to sabotaging God's Creation. This isn't Biblical or spiritual or poetical or metaphorical. This is literally what happened.

How could Satan compete with an All-Powerful God?
If you believe Satan has more power than God, then you have just demoted God to less than All-Powerful.

If this is not Biblical how do you know it happened?

 

[Trailblazer]

What exactly is evil? Do you mean something/someone that is morally bankrupt? A spiritual being? It's a very vague word with many meanings.

On another subject, Kitsap County, am I remembering that correctly?
I like to know where my friends live.

 

[SigurdReginson]

God doesn't let Evil run things. Satan is a traitor who received his understanding of man and Creation when he (Satan) was still on God's team. Then he broke away, setting up his own shop dedicated to sabotaging God's Creation. This isn't Biblical or spiritual or poetical or metaphorical. This is literally what happened.

Then god is at fault for standing by and doing nothing about it. If a cop just stood by and watched while a hoodlum robbed a grandma of her purse, the cop would be at fault for just standing by and doing nothing when he had the power to stop the robbery, no?

Reality itself it the greatest hoax of all time. It is a monstrous mental construct pounded into your mind by a life spent inside a system of upbringing, education, and artifically acquired routine behaviors. Of course spirits and the afterlife can't be "detected" or "measured" inside reality. These things are part of Actuality, not reality.

The bible is the instruction manual of life, right? What happens if that instruction manual doesn't represent the product in front of you? You can't just say it's the product's fault for not representing the instruction manual. It seems the instruction manual is insufficient for explaining the product.

Why is what? Why do you cherish it? It is a subtle pride in man: the satisfaction of "knowing".

I would invite you to entertain the idea that maybe the motivation for understanding, at least in my case, isn't in pride. I've seen some bad stuff, as have we all, and knowledge helps you fight that stuff. It's a tool, not a point of pride. Learning things can be fun at times, like when you learn about ancient societies, but ultimately learning extra knowledge is just a fun passtime, nothing more.

Or do you mean, why does it prevent your escape into oblivion? Because knowledge, in the sense of mental understanding, exists in the Mindspace. So cherishing knowledge keeps your Mindspace open -- prevents it from closing. Which in turns prevents your return to the Fused State.

Fused State... what is this, and where can I observe this Fused State in nature outside of the context of your religious concepts?

Evil stands completely outside this world, just like God does. I'm not fond of the term "spiritual being" because it only makes things vaguer. Satan is not a daemon. To put it in our-worldly terms, Satan is like a former employee of God, who ungratefully quit even though he had it good, and set up his own shop, abusing the knowledge from his former job to intentionally sabotage the Works done by God's shop. Evil is like a hacker hacking God's computers and ruining everything that's running on them. He can do this because he still has the passwords and know the tech from his days on God's payroll. Why is he doing this? Because he can.

God created the rules for existance. He can see all and do all, no? Why doesn't he do something about satan?

Satan

is just a name. I prefer tradition over newfangled names, so it works for me, but it isn't that important. A "non-denominational" term the club of saboteurs is simply Evil.

Ah, I see. It does tend to confuse things, though.

 

[SigurdReginson]

On another subject, Kitsap County, am I remembering that correctly?
I like to know where my friends live.

Yup!

Thurston County, right?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yup!

Thurston County, right?

Yup, and I am greatly relieved we got a relief from this heat wave for at least a day!

 

[Nakosis]

Defying a God who would create those afterlives seems a noble goal, though the existence of Hell/s doesn't necessarily mean there is a deity responsible for their creation. I would also be very surprised if anybody could deal with either of those eternities but for the sake of argument, let's say that it's possible. Let's also say there is indeed a deity sadistic enough to confine somebody to Hell. If so, might it not also alter the thought processes of its victims? Perhaps ensuring that the only thought they're capable of is an urgent need for their pain to stop?

I'm probably not doing a great job at explaining my views here, so I'll try to summarise: There is no upper limit to how terrible an afterlife might be. Finding a silver lining just means there's an even worse option in which that little scrap of hope isn't applicable.

Sure, maybe. I can only go by what would seem true to me now and at the time being asked. Right now can't imagine something I can't deal with. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[YoursTrue]

The soul is the breath of life in the sense that without the soul the body could not function.

You are right that this could be a long discussion and it is late here so I will leave you with a couple of things I have posted that describe what I believe the soul is and what happens to our body and soul when we die. Then we can pick this discussion up later if you want to.

The soul comes into being at the moment of conception and it animates the human body. The body needs a soul or it cannot live, but the soul does not need a body, so it continues to exist after the body dies. The body is destructible and temporary so eventually it dies; the soul is indestructible and eternal so it lives forever in the spiritual world.

Let me try to explain what I meant about the soul’s functions as briefly as possible. The soul (spirit) cannot be perceived in the material world, except as it is expressed in outward signs and works. The human body is visible, the soul is invisible. Nevertheless, it is the soul that directs human faculties. As outer circumstances are communicated to the soul by the eyes, ears, and brain, the soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world. Nobody can understand what that will be like before they die because the only reference point we have is the physical world and the physical body.

I believe the physical body dies only once and it remains dead in forever. When the physical body dies, the spirit (soul) leaves the body and passes from one world into another.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351​

I call that other world the spiritual world, but there is no real separation, as the spiritual world is within this world.

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

After the soul takes its flight to the spiritual world, the soul continues to progress on its journey through the spiritual world where it will endure forever.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

Yes, we could go into what the word in Hebrew means regarding soul, person, or life. Without breath within the human body, we are dead and the body will decay into dust. Notice Genesis 2:7, one from the New King James Version, the other from the older King James Version:
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, from the same word in Hebrew (nephesh), one Bible translates it as living being, the other as living soul. The man became a living being, sometimes translated as soul, on earth. He was not a living being or soul before that.
I hope this helps explain what I see the Bible as saying.

 

[YoursTrue]

Wouldn't "non-existence" be simply no longer existing at all? As in... there is not only nothing to scream about, but nothing left of you to do the screaming.

I'm thinking you're letting your ego fall into the trap that so many people often fall into - and that is thinking that there is no possible way that the universe at large would simply let your consciousness drop out of existence. If I had to guess, you probably honestly do feel that even in "non-existence" there would be some "part" of you thinking, feeling, reacting, etc. Which means you don't even grasp the concept in the slightest.

OK, now here I go. I doubt the sun, moon, and stars worry or think about things.

 

[Thief]

I find it hard to imagine a Hell I'd have a problem with or a Heaven I wouldn't have a problem with.

how about?....ending up alongside others that think and feel as you do

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

this applies to all and everyone

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, we could go into what the word in Hebrew means regarding soul, person, or life. Without breath within the human body, we are dead and the body will decay into dust. Notice Genesis 2:7, one from the New King James Version, the other from the older King James Version:
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, from the same word in Hebrew (nephesh), one Bible translates it as living being, the other as living soul. The man became a living being, sometimes translated as soul, on earth. He was not a living being or soul before that.
I hope this helps explain what I see the Bible as saying.

Yes, it explains it and I agree with it, but what I think happened in Christianity is that there was an assumption that when the body dies the soul dies, but it does not say that in the Bible. Wherever the Bible says that the soul dies or we lose our soul, that means is that the soul does not have eternal life. Eternal life is the state of the soul that is near to God so a soul that is not near to God is like a dead soul or a lost soul, but the soul continues to exist in the spiritual world, where it is far from God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 King James Version

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Much of the confusion has to do with terminology. On the context of the afterlife, Baha’is believe that the soul is the same as the spirit. We believe that when the body dies the body returns to dust and the soul (spirit) returns to God who gave us a soul (spirit).

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

 

[Thief]

I have posted in other threads.....
we are assembled

as assemblies.....we can be disassembled

eternal life does appear to be pending
not much point in forming so many learning devices
only to have them crumble into dust

but the intent ......of God
to have more and unique spirits around Him
is not a guarantee
that you will be around Him

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, it explains it and I agree with it, but what I think happened in Christianity is that there was an assumption that when the body dies the soul dies, but it does not say that in the Bible. Wherever the Bible says that the soul dies or we lose our soul, that means is that the soul does not have eternal life. Eternal life is the state of the soul that is near to God so a soul that is not near to God is like a dead soul or a lost soul, but the soul continues to exist in the spiritual world, where it is far from God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 King James Version

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Much of the confusion has to do with terminology. On the context of the afterlife, Baha’is believe that the soul is the same as the spirit. We believe that when the body dies the body returns to dust and the soul (spirit) returns to God who gave us a soul (spirit).

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

Actually, I think there is an assumption in many religions claiming to be Christian that the soul IS immortal. That it never dies. But the Bible does not say that. It is a confused issue in many people's minds. One reason it is confused (and confusing) is that they believe in eternity in heaven or hell. And they do not understand the concept of real death. Which is really not life. It is: non-existence. Just as Adam did not exist until God blew the breath of life into his nostrils. Then his brain began seeing (with his eyes, of course), feeling, and thinking. When he died, the breath of life went away from him. It gets kind of deep. Such as with spirit and breath. But to sum it up briefly, life is not death.

 

[YoursTrue]

Non-existence carries no risks, of course.
As for existence, the worst risk (by far) is of getting stuck --
of not finding your way back out.

And this isn't just a matter of being tempted into staying --
that wouldn't be so bad,
since temptation brings along its own cure,
and will make you change your ways, sooner or later.

The problem is rather, that there are agents afoot
who deceive you into behaving in ways
that you think are harmless, enjoyable, or "right",
while actually you are digging your own grave.

Roguish -- why you crying in your ID face? You make me cry.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, I think there is an assumption in many religions claiming to be Christian that the soul IS immortal. That it never dies. But the Bible does not say that.

But the Bible does not say that the soul dies so there is no reason to believe that the soul dies.
The body cannot live forever so how could we have eternal life if the soul dies?
Jesus said that whoever believes in him should not perish.
Jesus said we whoever believes in Him passes from death into life, not from life into death.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[YoursTrue]

But the Bible does not say that the soul dies so there is no reason to believe that the soul dies.
The body cannot live forever so how could we have eternal life if the soul dies?
Jesus said that whoever believes in him should not perish.
Jesus said we whoever believes in Him passes from death into life, not from life into death.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are two ways a person can gain everlasting life. One is by a resurrection and then getting to know Jehovah. Or to know Jehovah by means of his Son while alive. As I said, in order to really understand this, a prayerful examination must be done. But notice this, please:
English Standard Version Ezekiel 18:4.
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
That is one example in the Bible that the soul can die.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are two ways a person can gain everlasting life. One is by a resurrection and then getting to know Jehovah. Or to know Jehovah by means of his Son while alive. As I said, in order to really understand this, a prayerful examination must be done.

What do you mean by a resurrection? Do you mean a literal resurrection of the body from the grave?
I believe we can have everlasting life by knowing God by means of his Son while alive. That is a state of the soul while we are alive but it does not address the afterlife.

But notice this, please:
English Standard Version Ezekiel 18:4.
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
That is one example in the Bible that the soul can die.

I do not believe that means that the soul literally dies, I believe it means that soul will not have eternal life.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies. This is what the Bible means when it says that the soul can die.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

 

[YoursTrue]

What do you mean by a resurrection? Do you mean a literal resurrection of the body from the grave?
I believe we can have everlasting life by knowing God by means of his Son while alive. That is a state of the soul while we are alive but it does not address the afterlife.

I do not believe that means that the soul literally dies, I believe it means that soul will not have eternal life.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies. This is what the Bible means when it says that the soul can die.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

By resurrection, I mean the return of the person who died to life. Jehovah can do this, however He puts the molecules together and restores body and mind.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

OK, now here I go. I doubt the sun, moon, and stars worry or think about things.

I would accept that as the reality as well. And what is your point? That they still exist even though they don't worry or think about things? To a conscious being (like yourself) would you guess that "being" a sun would be any different than oblivion as compared to your state of consciousness now? Also... how exactly does one "become" a sun? In other words - how exactly does one "become" anything else at all? I understand that the constituent parts of your current body go on to become all sorts of parts for other objects and things. Do you believe those individual parts and parcels (such as a molecule of water that was once part of your body) carry some part of you with them? Careful now... because you currently expel molecules of water, and skin cells loaded with atoms of carbon and other elements ALL THE TIME. Do you sense "yourself" in those molecules and dead cells as they become dispersed across the face of the Earth? Well? Do you?