Non-existence vs an unknown afterlife

[Mock Turtle]

I cannot conceive of it either yet I know it exists.
I too am a risk taker. I should be dead by now the way I ride my bike constantly in such dangerous conditions.

You take care. That is an order!

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If only there was such a choice

, but if there is an afterlife there is and we will not have a choice whether we continue to exist or not.

No, there is a choice, in the sense that in this life, you can pursue the cessation of self-consciousness. If cessation is attained before your natural body perishes, you will certainly avoid a conscious afterlife. This is the OP's option 1.

I do not believe that it is possible to avoid a conscious afterlife because the soul is responsible for consciousness and the soul of everyone is eternal. This is a big subject we could pursue further if you want to.

Trailblazer said: I would choose Option 2, since (a) I would not want to cease to exist, and (b) this life has been hell so the afterlife could not be much worse, (c) I kinda sorta trust God that it will be much better than this world, and (d) I don't have problem with unknowns.

What if you could be tricked into violating God's Laws, so that His Promise won't come true for you? What I mean is, what if you could be tricked into believing that you are living life in a way that will earn you a good (enough) afterlife, but in fact you were deceived by an agent who intended to trap you into a pretty *bad* afterlife?

I do not believe that is possible because I have complete faith in my religion and its teachings and thus I have complete faith that I am following the correct spiritual path. In other words, I do not believe there is even the slightest possibility I could be wrong about my religion and its teachings because there is no logical explanation for my religion other than that it was revealed by God.

I do not believe in the devil, or Satan, so I do not believe anyone is trying to trick me. I chose what to believe by virtue of my own independent investigation and decided what to believe of my own free will.

Trailblazer said: I still have the same sentiments as you do about living forever, as forever is a long time, and what if we don't like it? There is no return ticket from the afterlife.

"Nightmarish" (Erebus) is just the right word. Of course Paradise is also possible in principle, but the trouble is that a nightmarish afterlife is not impossible. "No way out" (Scott C.) is another phrase that properly evokes the sense of terrible risk.

I agree that a nightmarish afterlife is possible and that is one of the reasons we are not told more about the afterlife (see below).

Trailblazer said: As a side note, in my religion we have been told why we have not been told more about the afterlife.

Interesting. Can you share the reason?

There are two reasons we have not been told more about the afterlife.

First, if we knew what the afterlife was like, we would not want to live one more minute in this world because we would be in such a hurry to get to the afterlife.

“Bahá'u'lláh says that were we to have the proper vision to see the blessings of the other world we would not bear to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth. The reason why we are deprived of that vision is because otherwise no one would care to remain and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 22, 1932, in Lights of Guidance, no. 696)​

However, there are two sides of that coin. While some people would long for death, other people would be so frightened that that would wish they had never been born.

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346​

I think He is referring to those headed for heaven vs. those headed for hell, which is a state of the soul, not a geographical location, but that is a whole different subject.

The second reason we have not been told more about the afterlife is that it would be impossible to describe the next world (afterlife) because it is not something we could understand, since it is so different from this world.

“You ask an explanation of what happens to us after we leave this world: This is a question which none of the Prophets have ever answered in detail, for the very simple reason that you cannot convey to a person's mind something entirely different from everything they have ever experienced……… So we cannot picture our state in the next world. All we know is that our consciousness, our personality, endures in some new state, and that that world is as much better than this one as this one is better than the dark womb of our mother was.....”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943, in Lights of Guidance, no. 701)

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings. pp. 156-157​

For more information on the soul and the afterlife:
Life after death/soul - Bahai9
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Trailblazer]

You take care. That is an order!

Thanks, I am as careful as I can be but traffic can be fierce here. I liked life much better during the governor's stay at home order because there was hardly any traffic, but of course I have to realize that could not last forever because people have to go to work in order to live, but where the hell was everyone going last night at 9 pm when I was trying to get home on my bike in the dark? I guess the solution for me would be to live in a small town, but moving is not an option right now. Heaven to me us a small town with little traffic, maybe even no cars at all.

 

[Nakosis]

while actually you are digging your own grave.

Sorry, digging your own grave is a metaphor for?

I'm thinking perhaps leading to non-existence? Or something else?

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me guess... YOU have a better idea than the rest of us, do you? You must believe that you do... otherwise how could you possibly even hint at the idea of risk? If you know nothing (which I assume you do), then you wouldn't even know if there were any risk, or what "risk" would even entail. The best first question I can think of is: A risk to WHAT?

I am surprised that after so long on this forum you do not know that Christians BELIEVE in hell.... tsk, tsk.
That's the risk, silly boy.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Thanks, I am as careful as I can be but traffic can be fierce here. I liked life much better during the governor's stay at home order because there was hardly any traffic, but of course I have to realize that could not last forever because people have to go to work in order to live, but where the hell was everyone going last night at 9 pm when I was trying to get home on my bike in the dark? I guess the solution for me would be to live in a small town, but moving is not an option right now. Heaven to me us a small town with little traffic, maybe even no cars at all.

Same here on lockdown, when lots more used their bikes, and if more now work from home it might get better - just as it once was. I used to cycle into the centre of London during the 60s and didn't have any bother but I doubt I would do so now. The last place I worked I could cycle, use a car or motorbike, and probably the latter was the nicest and safest - if I was not goaded into a race with some smart Alec in a car (which did happen once and for which I felt some stupidity over) - my bike usually outperforming most cars. But cycling might become more fashionable and safer if more do work from home, with many here seemingly wanting to do so. Many European countries seem to manage OK with cyclists.

 

[Nakosis]

The best way to imagine non existence after death, is to remember the non existence before birth/conception.

Well, I remember previous existences, but probably a product of my fertile imagination.

The reality of the memory is whatever it is, it feels like a real memory feels. I understand this guarantees nothing. Even memories from actual events change over time. Perhaps a dream I once had that felt real at the time.

Our minds are messed up and amazing at the same time.

Non-existence is under anesthesia. A period without memory. You know there was a time before and a time after. In between, nothing. So prehaps a memory of before but no memories of not existing, sorry.

 

[Nakosis]

I am surprised that after so long on this forum you do not know that Christians BELIEVE in hell.... tsk, tsk.
That's the risk, silly boy.

View attachment 41822

I find it hard to imagine a Hell I'd have a problem with or a Heaven I wouldn't have a problem with.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same here on lockdown, when lots more used their bikes, and if more now work form home it might get better - just as it once was. I used to cycle into the centre of London during the 60s and didn't have any bother but I doubt I would do so now. The last place I worked I could cycle, use a car or motorbike, and probably the latter was the nicest and safest - if I was not goaded into a race with some smart Alec in a car (which did happen once and for which I felt some stupidity over) - my bike usually outperforming most cars. But cycling might become more fashionable and safer if more do work from home, with many here seemingly wanting to do so. Many European countries seem to manage OK with cyclists.

I suppose it is not as bad as I make it sound as this county only has 300,000 people, so it is not as big as Seattle, but traffic is traffic. Riding my bike to work I was hit from behind by a car going 55 MPH in 2005 and that put the fear of God in me; although I was not badly injured, I was just lucky. I stopped riding the bike to work after that for a long time and took the bus instead, but I resumed riding the bike to work a few years ago because our office location moved and I would have to take 3 different buses to get to work.

My husband and I used to go all over on his motorcycle but after he totaled it and walked away we decided it was too dangerous to ride. I miss it during the nice weather but it is not worth the risk.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find it hard to imagine a Hell I'd have a problem with or a Heaven I wouldn't have a problem with.

Why is that?

 

[Nakosis]

Why is that?

I suppose I like chaos. I like problems. A place without problems doesn't sound like much fun for me.

I find peace of mind in the midst of conflict.

 

[Roguish]

Sorry, digging your own grave is a metaphor for?
I'm thinking perhaps leading to non-existence? Or something else?

I see now that it is an awkward metaphore,
since the grave implies death,
which some expect to be (or lead to) non-existence.
But I did not mean death, nor non-existence.
Instead of "digging your own grave"
I should have written
"constructing hell on earth".

So here goes one more time, with some additional changes:

Non-existence carries no risks, of course.
As for existence, the worst risk (by far) is of getting stuck --
of not finding your way back out.

And this isn't just a matter of being tempted into staying --
that wouldn't be so bad,
since temptation brings along its own cure,
and will make you change your ways, sooner or later.

The problem is rather, that there are agents afoot
who deceive you into behaving in ways
that you think are harmless, enjoyable, or virtuous,
while actually you are constructing hell on earth
and sealing off your escape route.​

 

[SigurdReginson]

I doubt that any of you understand the terrible risk involved.

Very true. A lack of understanding would lead the way, but curiosity would push me forward. I'm the sort of person who would rather learn a horrible truth than live in blissful ignorance. Sometimes that can be an uncomfortable thing, but ultimately more knowledge leads to better decision making and a broader understanding for why things are the way they are, which is something I care about.

As for the risk involved though, "fortune favours the bold." Though, it seems like a selfish thought that people's conciousnesses somehow endure beyond death, I feel. We aren't that special compared to the rest of nature, and nothing about us should persist forever just to soothe our fears of a perminant end. Seems arrogant.

I guess for me, I care more about the things I would learn rather than the idea that my conciousness would carry on forever. I would only accept this afterlife with the caveat that I could embrace oblivion at will, assuming I've learned everything there is to know.

 

[Nakosis]

The problem is rather, that there are agents afoot
who deceive you into behaving in ways
that you think are harmless, enjoyable, or virtuous,
while actually you are constructing hell on earth
and sealing off your escape route.​

So, not to dismiss what you are saying and maybe I'm being naive. I don't expect you to go into details about what hell on earth would be.

I like conflict, chaos, problems. It is hard for me to imagine a hell on earth I wouldn't find interesting.

Am I constructing hell on earth? Maybe, out of some weird desire to make my life more complicated. I suppose I don't want to escape so much.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose I like chaos. I like problems. A place without problems doesn't sound like much fun for me.

I find peace of mind in the midst of conflict.

You and me both, but I don't think you would want to live for ETERNITY with problems and conflict.....

If you imagine heaven will be just sitting around on a cloud being bored, that is not what it will be like. We will still have work to do and challenges to meet. The difference is that it will not be a material world so we won't have the struggles associated with a material existence, like work, and car and home repairs.

“Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96​

 

[Trailblazer]

I doubt that any of you understand the terrible risk involved.

Why do you imagine there's a risk?

There is a risk only of there is a God, an afterlife, and something akin to hell.
Otherwise there is no risk, because you will just be DEAD.

 

[Trailblazer]

I like conflict, chaos, problems. It is hard for me to imagine a hell on earth I wouldn't find interesting.

Obviously your hell on earth is not like my hell on earth. It is anything but interesting.

 

[Nakosis]

You and me both, but I don't think you would want to live for ETERNITY with problems and conflict.....

If you imagine heaven will be just sitting around on a cloud being bored, that is not what it will be like. We will still have work to do and challenges to meet. The difference is that it will not be a material world so we won't have the struggles associated with a material existence, like work, and car and home repairs.

“Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96​

So like earth except with immortality?
Does what we do here between birth and death matter?

 

[Trailblazer]

I like conflict, chaos, problems.

Do you want 10 Persian cats and 3 houses?
My husband does not like challenges, maybe I married the wrong man.

 

[Trailblazer]

So like earth except with immortality?
Does what we do here between birth and death matter?

No, it is not like earth because it is not a material world, but it is like earth in the sense that we will still be the same person and we will have stuff to do. I have no idea how that will play out because the afterlife is a mystery for the most part.

What we do here on earth matters very much because that is the sole determinant of what we will experience in the afterlife, since the whole purpose of this existence is to acquire the qualities of character we will need in the afterlife. By struggling and meeting challenges you are probably acquiring some of those qualities.