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Non-Evolved Conciousness

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by The Hammer, Jun 10, 2021 at 1:44 PM.

  1. The Hammer

    The Hammer Hrafnúlfh
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    Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

    An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

    Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

    "Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."
     
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  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Just off the top of my head, I'd say this is a pretty weak hypothesis. 'Quantization' is an "after-the-fact" ideological (conceptual) overlay. A way of "looking back", so to speak. But this theory is presuming it to be a participating factor. And I don't buy it. Nor do I buy the idea that qualitative processing is "immeasurable". It is subjective, yes, but not abjectly immeasurable.

    I see no reason to assume that consciousness did not evolve from animate matter (life) the same way life evolved from inanimate matter. Everything that exists appears to have "evolved" (emerged) through the same set of fundamental limitations and possibilities innate to the expression of energy, itself.
     
    #2 PureX, Jun 10, 2021 at 3:04 PM
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 3:10 PM
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  3. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    If consciousness, rather than being a 'thing,' is an emergent property arising from the complicated, complex and chaotic interactions of living systems, there is really nothing much to explain, or so it seems to me.
     
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  4. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    It worries me that the author is
    *a Dutch computer scientist and philosopher who has published fundamental theoretical reflections on the mind matter problem." - ie he is not an expert in the field he is talking about.
     
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  5. The Hammer

    The Hammer Hrafnúlfh
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    A lot of AI (which is computational and philosophical) research revolves around analyzing conscious experience, so I don't see why his opinion doesn't have some merit.
     
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  6. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    If you say so.
     
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  7. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with him. His statement
    "One problem with this is that, under the premises of materialism, phenomenal consciousness cannot—by definition—have a function"
    is incorrect. Consciousness definitely has a function that would be a selective advantage. Increasing awareness of ones environment and ones self allows for more complex behaviors that natural selection did select for. Consciousness is very critical for complex social behaviors. The experiences of color, sound, touch, and taste are products of out nervous system helping us to interpret our environment. The actual qualia does not diminish the fact that the sensation allow for an organism to change a behavior which is a clear advantage for survival.

    There is no reason to not accept that increasing neurologic complexity thus increasing neurologic interconnection would not create new and more complex phenomena. After all an atom by itself doses not exabit the same phenomena as when connected to multiple other atoms of different types. The increasing complexity of arrangements of atom have new characteristics and phenomena. Two hydrogens together compared to the complex interaction of all the molecules in an organic membrane. There is a point when those atoms in increasing complex interaction are complex enough to be called living. Why would not increasingly complex neurological interaction be able to become complex enough to be called consciousness.
     
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  8. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I think it revolves more around intelligence than consciousness. We do not know if the circuitry of a computer has the same necessary properties as the biological nervous system to generate a conscious experience but this is still a fairly recent field of study.
     
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  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I'm really not sure why so many people think that phenomenology can't be explained materialistically.

    All that is required is to note that certain physical processes inevitably are associated with certain mental processes. We then have an equivalence between the physical and the mental. What else needs explaining?

    It feels, to me, like the fact that a current is ultimately a movement of charges. And that produces things like magnetic fields. No further explanation is required for why a magnetic field is produced from a moving charge: it just is.
     
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  10. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Consciousness can't evolve because it isn't a living organism.
     
  11. The Hammer

    The Hammer Hrafnúlfh
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    Processes and functions evolve in organisms though. :) Even if the process itself isn't evolutionary. Like the pancreas excreting bile.
     
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  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    It is a process in some living organisms. So, like other processes of living organisms, it can change over the generations as the genetics changes. That is evolution.
     
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  13. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. Consciousness does evolve because it is an aspect of a living organism just as any organ or physiological process.
     
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