"non-denominational" churches

[Quiddity]

Big words with nothing to back them up. You can assert all you want, but you have demonstrated nothing as of yet.

Why do ask for what you do not wish to venture into? You have already stated that you will only stick to first century writings. What will I gain? Is there a reason why you ignored my last 2 questions?

There is nothing missing in the New Testament in regards to the operation and goals of a church in modern times. We don't need the ecoutrements and entrapments of trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Let's see, how about I ask you and a group of TRUE christians what the "operation and goals" of the church are. Will the answers match? Not at all. It seems like it can do everything but resolve doctrinal differences. Your belief system once again falls in the face of reality.

~Victor

 

[glasgowchick]

You continue to attack and not deal with the problems I have set before you. I will answer your errors in this post, but you have to start explaining as well.

Firs,t Peter addressing them as "fellow presbyters" does not mean he did not have authority over them. AS an example; The President of the United States says "My fellow citizens..." and is entirely factualy in saying so, and yet no one would make the claim that the President has no more power than me.


I am not sure which speeh of Strossmayer you are reading, but there was fabricated speech made later by prottestants cliaimign to be his work, and it was not. However, Strossmayer DID oppose the infallible proncouncement of Papal Infallibility. However, once it was pronounced, he accepted it as authoritative.


Well I am out of time, unfortunately. Could Victor and SOGFPP finish this little rebuttal for me? Thanks.

If not, I will get on it tommorrow.

I don't feel I have anything to explain, I may have a lot to understand to where you guys are coming from but that is a different story..The Bible I have in my hand does not add up to what the cathoilics teach, I will explain my reasons for that in a moment..All I am trying to do is find out an honest answer for the identity of Peter..Thowing all examples aside, Did Peter say he was an Elder or not..It's that simple, I believe he said I was an Elder...

Ok Here goes, If there is more to the Bible [ which I believe there is ] Who Decided which was inspired and what is not inspired to form the Bible we have today as being inspired..The Bible I have is made up of 66 books which is declared in 2Tim3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction for training in righteousness..Since the Book of 2Timothy has been put there as being one of the"inspired" books,Then for me this verse tells me that, what we have is all that is needed, it is profitable for teaching, for reproof for correction and for training in righteousness......

If John is one of the inspired book of the Bible, John 16:13 tells me that when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own initaitive, but whatever he hears, he will speak and he will disclose to you what is to come...This verse tells me that the men that wrote these books wrote under direction of the Holy Spirit and not of their own thoughts,,Since the Holy Spirit doesn't lie, I can be sure whatever has been written in these inspired books come directly from God and his word is all truth....

What purpose does these inspired books have in my life..The Bible Gives me the answer. It helps me to keep away from sin..Ps 119:11 " your word I have treasured in my heart that I may not sin against you"...Knowing the word of God and His Truth helps me live my life in what is pleasing to him..

2Timothy 3:15 tells us and from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus...This tells me that through reading Gods word, His word the Bible can enlighten us to all truth..

The Bible tells us in 1Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth prurified your souls for a sincere love of the brethern, fervently love one another from the heart...Gods word can purify us to have a sincere love for the brethern....

The Bible tells us in John 8:32 and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free....Only reading the word of God and knowing His word, will set us free...

The Bible tells us in Jamesd 1:21....Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility recieve the word implanted, which is able to save your souls..If We recieve the word of God, It is his word that is able to save us..

2Peter 1:3 says Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to His mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the Dead...It Is all things because through Gods word I was able to be born again.....

Gods Word is Indestructable, It lasts forever..Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away..1Peter 1:25 The word of the Lord endures forever and this is the word that has been preached to you..And all this is where my faith in Christ comes from,, It is in these words of God and our savior Jesus Christ....

The Bible warns us..
In Deuteronmy 4:2 you shall not add to the word to which I am commanding you, nor take away from it that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you..

Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to His Words or He will reprove you and you will be proved a liar....

Revelations 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book..19 and if anyone takes away from the words of this prophecy God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city which are written in this book....

My faith doesn't lie with anything written outside the word of God but the words that are provided therein..

The Bible warns not to substitute Human Idea's
Mark 7:7-9 says But in vain do they worship me teaching as doctrines of men 8 neglecting the commandment of God you hold to the tradition of men 9 he was also saying to them you are experts at setting aside the commandments of God in order to keep the tradition...

We are also told to teach and preach Gods word.

2Timothy 4:2 preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction..
1Peter 4:11 whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God, whoever serves,is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies so that in all God may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom belongs the Glory and dominion forever and ever Amen.

We have to believe in no other Gospel

Galations 1:8 but even if we or an angel from heaven Should preach to you another Gospel contary to what we preached to you, he is to be accursed.

His Word will judge us
John 12:48 He who rejects me and does not recieve my sayings has one who judges him at the last day..

So What is my point, no matter who compiled the Scriptures they thought to as be inspired together, You cannot ignore the teachings and warnings that has been put together as the inspired Word of God....It Is within the word of God the bible that many have placed their faith, who is right who is wrong, I don't know, but I can say is what I have already said, it will be His word that Judges us on the last day.Thankyou...

 

[James the Persian]

Having just read this thread and being Orthodox, with a good reason to dispute Papal supremacy along with those Protestants here (though I probably disagree with them on many other issues), I just thought that I would offer these words from the western Church Father St. Ambrose as food for thought:

“It was proper that Paul should go to see Peter. Why? Was Peter superior to him and to the other Apostles? No, but because, of all the Apostles, he was the first to be entrusted by the Lord with the care of the churches. Had he need to be taught, or to receive a commission from Peter? No, but that Peter might know that Paul had received the power which had also been given to himself.”

and:

“As soon as Peter heard these words, ‘Whom say ye that I am?’ remembering his place, he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honour; a primacy of faith, not of rank.”

Does anybody who reads this really subscribe to the idea that St. Ambrose was in favour of the universal jurisdiction of the Papacy? Note that I've chosen St. Ambrose here because he is widely regarded by the RCC but there are many similar quotations from other Church Fathers I could have chosen, from various centuries and various locations, both east and west.

Despite the bald assertions that some RCs have posted in this thread, the Patristic witness is far from unanimously in favour of Papal supremacy. In fact, I'd say the opposite was true.

James

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why do ask for what you do not wish to venture into?

So instead of supporting your contentions with logic or scripture, you resort to some vague innuendo about what I want or don't want. I have mentioned before that you seem to assume a lot, but this is becoming epic in proportions. Rather than blame ME for YOU not answering the queries, you would do well to place the blame on the non-complying debater. Somehow I can almost hear you reply to this in a rather bad Jack Nicholson impersonation: "You want the truth" YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH".

As for the other two questions, I answered them... possibly you either just didn't like or comprehend the answers, but only you know what was in your heart. I'll go ahead and match my answers to your questions for clarification.

Not only that but should we not at least read of other writers that teach similar doctrines as yours after the apostles?

There is nothing missing in the New Testament in regards to the operation and goals of a church in modern times.

Why don't we?

We don't need the ecoutrements and entrapments of trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Now hopefully, you will do me the same favor. Instead of telling me why I don't want to hear the answer, try just giving us the answer. Also, read my posts for the answers to your questions. I CAN spell out "Here is my answer" if you like, but I don't much care for repeating myself or answering accusations that I didn't answer you. Doing this your way will consume far more time and energy.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Let's see, how about I ask you and a group of TRUE christians what the "operation and goals" of the church are. Will the answers match? Not at all. It seems like it can do everything but resolve doctrinal differences.

Novel idea: Why don't we just let the scriptures answer this for us. Most RCs claim them as their own, so I don't see why this would be contradictory for you. Why not just refer to the owner's manual to see what makes us and the church tick? (Yeah, I know: "I really don't want the answers.")

Your belief system once again falls in the face of reality.

Did it now? I sure wish someone would have told me this earlier! So you are saying that Jesus is not the Christ and that those words in the Bible are all lies? Whodathunk! Well, I guess I had best be looking for a new "belief system". Thanks for the insight!

 

[Scott1]

There is nothing missing in the New Testament in regards to the operation and goals of a church in modern times. We don't need the ecoutrements and entrapments of trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Well, I must say that the idea sounds wonderful.....

NetDoc, we'll agree all day long on ecclesiology and the history of the Christian faith, but we do agree on one thing...... the most important thing..... Jesus is Lord!

Good enough for me.... nice chatting with ya.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

I don't feel I have anything to explain, I may have a lot to understand to where you guys are coming from but that is a different story..The Bible I have in my hand does not add up to what the cathoilics teach, I will explain my reasons for that in a moment..All I am trying to do is find out an honest answer for the identity of Peter..Thowing all examples aside, Did Peter say he was an Elder or not..It's that simple, I believe he said I was an Elder...

It can be translated as elder, presbyter, etc. He said that, big deal. The Pope is a priest. The Pope is a fellow Catholic. That doesn't make him less a Pope.

Ok Here goes, If there is more to the Bible [ which I believe there is ] Who Decided which was inspired and what is not inspired to form the Bible we have today as being inspired..

GREAT QUESTION! Who DID decide what books were inspired? I mean, surely you know WHY you believe the Bible, is inspired, correct? I mean, it was not a fourth century CATHLOIC Council that decided the books in your New Testament, was it?

The Bible I have is made up of 66 books which is declared in 2Tim3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction for training in righteousness..Since the Book of 2 Timothy has been put there as being one of the"inspired" books,Then for me this verse tells me that, what we have is all that is needed, it is profitable for teaching, for reproof for correction and for training in righteousness......

First, if 2 Timothy proves that the Scritpures are sufficient, it proves TOO much, since first, it is refering to the Old Testament, and second, it really says "Each and every scripture". So EACH INDIVIDUAL Book would be sufficient if your interpretation of this verse was correct, which it is not. Also, James 1: 4 uses even STRONGER language than that which 2 Timothy puts forth, saying perseverance makes a man perfect. Yet I doubt you would accept that, would you? Also, 2 Timothy 3: 16 never even says anything is sufficient in the first place, saying only that the Scriptures are profitable and that they makje the man of God complete. Care to define who a man of God is?

If John is one of the inspired book of the Bible, John 16:13 tells me that when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own initaitive, but whatever he hears, he will speak and he will disclose to you what is to come...This verse tells me that the men that wrote these books wrote under direction of the Holy Spirit and not of their own thoughts,,Since the Holy Spirit doesn't lie, I can be sure whatever has been written in these inspired books come directly from God and his word is all truth....

Agreed. What is in the inspired books of God is indeed all truth. Yet you have no way of KNOWING which books are inspired.

What purpose does these inspired books have in my life..The Bible Gives me the answer. It helps me to keep away from sin..Ps 119:11 " your word I have treasured in my heart that I may not sin against you"...Knowing the word of God and His Truth helps me live my life in what is pleasing to him..

Once again, agreed. But you STILL do not have any reason for believing the Books in your Bible are inspired.

2Timothy 3:15 tells us and from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus...This tells me that through reading Gods word, His word the Bible can enlighten us to all truth..

And yet not all of us agree. Is God pointing us in different directions? That is impossible.

The Bible tells us in 1Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth prurified your souls for a sincere love of the brethern, fervently love one another from the heart...Gods word can purify us to have a sincere love for the brethern....

Completely agreed.

The Bible tells us in John 8:32 and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free....Only reading the word of God and knowing His word, will set us free...

STOP! The Bible tells us that the truth will set you free, and without thinking about it, without even NOTICICNG it, you IMMEDIATELY equate "truth" with "Bible". Any reasons for this?

The Bible tells us in Jamesd 1:21....Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility recieve the word implanted, which is able to save your souls..If We recieve the word of God, It is his word that is able to save us..

True, but the Word of God does not ONLY mean the Bible. The rest of your words make the claim that it does, basically.

So What is my point, no matter who compiled the Scriptures they thought to as be inspired together, You cannot ignore the teachings and warnings that has been put together as the inspired Word of God....It Is within the word of God the bible that many have placed their faith, who is right who is wrong, I don't know, but I can say is what I have already said, it will be His word that Judges us on the last day.Thankyou...

I think it DOES matter who compiled the Scriptures. You are trusting a Council of the Catholic Church to decide your Bible for you, and then in the same breath you deny the Church's authority. That is a contradiciton, but one that msot protestants msut deal with. Protestants simply do not KNOW why they believe in the Bible, and yet they claim it is the foundation of truth, even though in that Bible, the CHURCH is called the pillar and foundation of all truth, 1 Timothy 3: 15

So until you can show me why you believe in the Bible, stop quoting it

 

[Scuba Pete]

since first, it is refering to the Old Testament,

You have this in writing, I presume? Peter referred to Paul's writings as being scripture in his missal. Why would they limit themselves so and how did you arrive at this conclusion?

And yet not all of us agree. Is God pointing us in different directions? That is impossible.

Why blame God for our personal and corporate apostasies?

Philippians 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. NIV

I must admit that this is a radical concept.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You are trusting a Council of the Catholic Church to decide your Bible for you,

We have trusted God to work through sinful man. It has always been and always will be. Don't limit the power of God my friend.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

You have this in writing, I presume? Peter referred to Paul's writings as being scripture in his missal. Why would they limit themselves so and how did you arrive at this conclusion?

The "Scriptures" for the men of the time were the OT writings. Unless he specifically says otherwise, it is reasonable to assume he meant the OT. But that doesn't matter, even if it does refer to all Scriptures, it does nothing to prove the sufficiency of the Bible

Why blame God for our personal and corporate apostasies?

Your position makes no sense. The Holy Spirit will make sure we all know what is right and yet the Holy Spirirt has personally, specifically allowed 20,000 proetstant denominations, all believing different things, to spring up? Sure, that makes sense.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

We have trusted God to work through sinful man. It has always been and always will be. Don't limit the power of God my friend.

I almsot had to re-read this to make sure I understand what you are saying. You believe in the Bible because the Catholic Church says so?!

That is ridiculous. You cannot claim that God works through sinful men, saying the Bible was attained in this way, and then ignore those "sinful men" in other matters. If the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be--which you of course think it is not--then you CANNOT use any Catholic Council as the basis for your belief in the Scriptures. You may as well use a consensus of opinion from me, Victor and SOGFPP.

Your position is untenable.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Bwahahaha!

Of course I can. Here is the REAL kicker:

Catholics didn't WRITE any of the Bible. They only assembled it.

But God even used PHAROAH to further his goals. Why couldn't he use a synod, no matter how sinful it is? You really limit the power of God, don't you?

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

You just do not get it. By your reasoning, I should hold the Book of Mormon as sacred because Joseph Smith said to, and after all, God can use sinful men to further his ways! Look in the mirror, netdoc, your position is absurd. You are claiming that you are trusting in a bunch of LIARS for your Biblical Canon because God can use sinful men? What on God's good Earth would make you even THINK they were capable of making such a decision?

You have NO reason at all to think the New Testament books are inspired, and have still not supplied a reason.

 

[Quiddity]

So instead of supporting your contentions with logic or scripture, you resort to some vague innuendo about what I want or don't want. I have mentioned before that you seem to assume a lot, but this is becoming epic in proportions. Rather than blame ME for YOU not answering the queries, you would do well to place the blame on the non-complying debater. Somehow I can almost hear you reply to this in a rather bad Jack Nicholson impersonation: "You want the truth" YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH".

Not answering? Fair enough. I'll use Scripture, history, and reason.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

UD...

If you are looking for physical proofs, then you have joined the ranks of Thomas. Christianity is a "revealed" faith. Anyone who tells you differently is peddling something. There is no way for you to know or understand the truth save you let God reveal it to you.

You can choose to believe Joseph Smith. I stick with authors that were alive in the first century.

BTW, when you say "You have NO reason", you prove that you have no real grasp of my beliefs. It's not my fault that you do not understand or even see the REASONS that I believe what I do, but that has no bearing on their validity. I tell you what, I won't stick words in your mouth, if you won't stick them in mine. Thanks in advance.

Victor...

take all the time that you need. I look forward to reading what you have to offer. If you start another thread for the discussion, please clue me in as to where it can be found.

 

[Quiddity]

When you wish you can start a post on anything you would like to discuss Netdoc.

~Victor

 

[glasgowchick]

It can be translated as elder, presbyter, etc. He said that, big deal. The Pope is a priest. The Pope is a fellow Catholic. That doesn't make him less a Pope.


GREAT QUESTION! Who DID decide what books were inspired? I mean, surely you know WHY you believe the Bible, is inspired, correct? I mean, it was not a fourth century CATHLOIC Council that decided the books in your New Testament, was it?


First, if 2 Timothy proves that the Scritpures are sufficient, it proves TOO much, since first, it is refering to the Old Testament, and second, it really says "Each and every scripture". So EACH INDIVIDUAL Book would be sufficient if your interpretation of this verse was correct, which it is not. Also, James 1: 4 uses even STRONGER language than that which 2 Timothy puts forth, saying perseverance makes a man perfect. Yet I doubt you would accept that, would you? Also, 2 Timothy 3: 16 never even says anything is sufficient in the first place, saying only that the Scriptures are profitable and that they makje the man of God complete. Care to define who a man of God is?


Agreed. What is in the inspired books of God is indeed all truth. Yet you have no way of KNOWING which books are inspired.


Once again, agreed. But you STILL do not have any reason for believing the Books in your Bible are inspired.


And yet not all of us agree. Is God pointing us in different directions? That is impossible.


Completely agreed.


STOP! The Bible tells us that the truth will set you free, and without thinking about it, without even NOTICICNG it, you IMMEDIATELY equate "truth" with "Bible". Any reasons for this?


True, but the Word of God does not ONLY mean the Bible. The rest of your words make the claim that it does, basically.




I think it DOES matter who compiled the Scriptures. You are trusting a Council of the Catholic Church to decide your Bible for you, and then in the same breath you deny the Church's authority. That is a contradiciton, but one that msot protestants msut deal with. Protestants simply do not KNOW why they believe in the Bible, and yet they claim it is the foundation of truth, even though in that Bible, the CHURCH is called the pillar and foundation of all truth, 1 Timothy 3: 15

So until you can show me why you believe in the Bible, stop quoting it

AND who gave you the Authority TO TELL ANYBODY TO STOP QUOTING FROM THE BIBLE...Using phrases like " big deal" is down right Cheek, puffed up and prideful...please come down off your throne and have some respect.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

UD...

If you are looking for physical proofs, then you have joined the ranks of Thomas. Christianity is a "revealed" faith. Anyone who tells you differently is peddling something. There is no way for you to know or understand the truth save you let God reveal it to you.

You can choose to believe Joseph Smith. I stick with authors that were alive in the first century.

BTW, when you say "You have NO reason", you prove that you have no real grasp of my beliefs. It's not my fault that you do not understand or even see the REASONS that I believe what I do, but that has no bearing on their validity. I tell you what, I won't stick words in your mouth, if you won't stick them in mine. Thanks in advance.

Victor...

take all the time that you need. I look forward to reading what you have to offer. If you start another thread for the discussion, please clue me in as to where it can be found.

Jesus told us to preach hte Gospel. Well you aren't going to cinvince anyeone by saying "You should believe in Jesus because... I say so!", and that is what you are doing.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

AND who gave you the Authority TO TELL ANYBODY TO STOP QUOTING FROM THE BIBLE...Using phrases like " big deal" is down right Cheek, puffed up and prideful...please come down off your throne and have some respect.

I specifically said "Until you give a REASON for believing in the Bible, stop quoting it".

I suppose you can quote it all you want. But since niether you nor anyone else has given a legitimate reason as to why I should even BELIEVE in the Bible, your quotes are meaningless.

 

[glasgowchick]

I specifically said "Until you give a REASON for believing in the Bible, stop quoting it".

I suppose you can quote it all you want. But since niether you nor anyone else has given a legitimate reason as to why I should even BELIEVE in the Bible, your quotes are meaningless.

So Are you saying you don't believe in the bible, what is it your saying here? You shouldn't need for me to explain to you as to why I personally believe the bible, and because I haven't given you a reason to satisfy you, you still have no right to tell anyone to stop quoting from scripture..There is no excuse for it whatever your reason for it....I feel very offended by your comment.