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"non-denominational" churches

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SoliDeoGloria, Mar 22, 2005.

  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    NetDoc, a catholic apologists does a rather good job of explaning this verse. For this one I will copy and paste. Gary Hoge says:

    Hope this helps.

    ~Victor
     
  2. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Good answer and agreed. Now my next question is why do they need to give account FOR YOU? Is this authority only given to give Joy? Or is this authority extend to doctrinal matters? If not, why not?

    ~Victor
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Fortunately we believe the Catholic Church was given authority by our Lord Jesus Christ.;)

    Here is a good read for you. If you wish to understand.
    http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary4.php

    glasgowchick, as catholics we believe the following.
    1. The Bible is the Word of God
    2. We need to study the Scriptures
    3. The Scriptures are authoritative

    I don't think we disagree here. So I think the question to ask is: Why do you believe the Bible is formally sufficient?
    To say that the Bible is formally sufficient means that it not only contains every doctrine necessary for salvation, but that those doctrines are also presented so clearly and plainly that anyone can understand them easily, without the help of an outside interpreter. In other words the Bible is self-interpreting.

    As catholics we believe that the apostles taught the gospel both orally and in writing, and that Jesus established His Church to safeguard the gospel message, whether oral or written. Some of the apostles’ teachings are explained quite clearly in their writings (the bodily resurrection of Christ, for example), but other teachings are barely mentioned, and sometimes they are difficult to understand and subject to multiple interpretations (the “unforgivable” sin, for example). Therefore, if we are to have a clear and correct understanding of the gospel, we must not exclude the oral teachings that have been handed down from the apostles. In many cases the oral teachings can shed light on the written teachings, and help us know how to interpret them. Looking at how the first Christians understood the gospel can also help us know how to interpret the Bible. We all know what Jesus said, but in order to be sure we correctly understand what He meant, He invested His church with the task of interpreting His Word, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
    The Catholic Church uses the word “Tradition” to describe the part of apostolic teaching that was handed down orally. This is perhaps unfortunate, because to modern ears the word “tradition” means “traditions of men” or “legends.” It’s very important to remember that when the Catholic Church speaks of Tradition (with a capital “T”) it is referring only to the unwritten teachings of the apostles.

    ~Victor
     
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  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    To begin with:

    James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. NIV

    I Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
    NIV

    Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
    NIV

    The elders (as well as the Deacons) are in charge of the flock for each congregation. They have quite a bit of responsibility and apparently God holds them accountable.
     
  5. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    Oh wow, I didn't see this coming. I started this one a long time ago. Oh well, that's what I get for not checking up on threads I start.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  6. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Ok, I agree but you didn't answer my second question, which is the one I was really trying to get to. Unless I missed it.

    "Or is this authority extend to doctrinal matters? If not, why not?"

    Any thoughts about my last 2 posts?

    The least in Christ
    ~Victor
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    We already discussed about not going "beyond what is written", right?

    No one is allowed to contradict, add to, or subtract from scripture. The goal is to immitate the First Century church... in all it's primitiveness. I believe that they had it goin' on.
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    "Religion that is pure and genuine in the sight of God the Father will show itself by such things as . . . keeping oneself uncontaminated by the world."—JAMES 1:27, Phillips.

    True worship is not tainted by involvement in politics and worldly conflicts

    They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world(john 17;16)

    And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths." For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore(isaiah 2;2-4)so who is not involved with war?

     
  9. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hello victor, There is something I am misunderstanding here, you say that, It is very important to remember that when the Catholic church speaks of tridtion etc, it is reffering to the unwritten teachings of apostles..How can one hand down something Orally, please excuse my ignorance of maybe stupidity but if something is said orally and not written down, if we weren't there at the time of the apostles spoke orally..Im sorry Im not understanding what your saying here..Thankyou for your post victor...
     
  10. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Again Victor, I just got done reading the artical you put in your post to me, I did enjoy reading it thankyou...That is how you see the interpretation and that is good, there is a scripture that I can't think of at the moment off the top of my head, but I am sure you will know the one I'm talking about. It's the one that says we have to be "sure in our own mind"...If you see thats what the Scripture says and that's what you live by then who am I to judge..Now please allow me if you will to explain how I would read these passages...But before I do I would like to say something first..When in Church and there are prayer request, we don't ask eachother to pray for us, we take all of our prayers to God in Jesus name..Now for the Scriptures in the site that has been mentioned..While it is right to pray for everybody cause boy do we all need prayers right? But the way I read Rev 5:8 when it is talking about the bowls with the prayers of the saints, We are also saints here on earth according to psalms 16:3...So could rev 5:8 be possibly be saying that the prayers in the bowls are from the saints here on Earth ?..This is how I see it and that doesn't make it wrong either....We can read Scripture that has no specific command in it and come to different conclusions but that shouldn't stop us from being a church...I shall try and give you another example..

    1Timothy 2:9-10 likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper Clothing modesty and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works as it is proper for women making a claim to Godliness...Would you please tell me how you would read this passage...And apply this in my life...Thankyou...
     
  11. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Victor now I will try answer some of your quetions..first answer, I totally agree, that the bible is the word of God, we do need to study Scritpture and that Scritptures are Authoritive agreed..
    To answer that question, I dont recall saying that every doctrine is prestented so clearly..I know there are a lot of Scriptures hard to understand and that is why we need Elders to tend to their flock, but I also believe that Scripture can be analysed as, facts to be believed, commands to be obeyed promises to be recieved and warnings for all to heed..I don't think the Gospel of Christ Jesus is hard to understand, Hear, believe, confess Christ, repent and be baptized for the forgivness of sins and you shall recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..Oh and live faithfully to the end..I believe if we follow those instructions we have salvation...
    The Traditions of the early Church was that once they had heard the Gospel told to them by peter, They were baptized..Acts 2:41 tells us " So then those who had recieved his word where baptized and that day there were added about three thousand souls verse 46 day by day continuing with one mind in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking thier meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart verse 47 praising God and having favor with all people and the Lord was adding to thier number day by day those who were being saved..Here is how I read this Scripture..People heard the Gospel,where sorry for crucifying our Lord [ repented ] believed and where baptized, That was the beguining of the Church..From there on in it was their tradition to the gathering together to break bread on the first day of the week, they took up a collection, they worshipped, the sang,.. and I have ran out of time, need to collect the kids from school...Sorry!!!!!!!!
     
  12. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Actually God did not forbid the making of statues, he forbid the making of IDOLS. That is a huge difference. And did you not read the passages, God commanded them to make statues. I can get more if you like.

    As for the Bible thing, that is really frustrating. You continue to just ignore my questions about it. If you do not want to asnwer, that is fine. But seeing as we are on a religious discussion forum, I figured you would.
     
  13. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Like I said, the Biblical evidence for infant Baptism does not PROVE it. I do not need everything to be in the Bible.

    I Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

    [quoteDid I miss it? I don't see purgatory mentioned here. Maybe it's the wrong passage? [/quote]
    He will suffer loss, he will be saved, but only as through fire. What fire? The fire of Hell? That can't be. No one is saved there. Heaven? No, no one suffers there. Only purgatory is left.


    Than how come he is counseling all Christians to disagree?

    Is that so? 1 Tim 3: 15 "The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth" what have you to say about that?
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Try LIFE. The "HEAT" of Spiritual Battle my friend! So, there is no REAL BIBLICAL proof of purgatory either. Just a lot of extrapolation to explain something that you don't really understand.

    Uh, do you think the Spirit counseled Adam and Eve to sin as well? I would hope not. The truth is out there... are YOU willing to seek it? Are YOU willing to sacrifice your sacred cows in the name of truth?

    Whoa, whoa, whoa... let's NOT pull a verse out of context just to "win an argument".

    I Timothy 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
    He appeared in a body,
    was vindicated by the Spirit,
    was seen by angels,
    was preached among the nations,
    was believed on in the world,
    was taken up in glory.
    NIV

    So just WHY was Paul writing these instructions if the church is to usurp them at any time?
     
  15. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Ok before I go any futher, I want to say I am sorry for all my nasty remarks and comments, It wasn't very Christ like and I apoligise..So no more smart remarks from this end...Ok Would you explain what a statue is if it is not an Idol or a graven image.. I have an Idea of the other Scriptures that would back your other scriptures up....So would you tell me how you see these other Scriptures...1kings19:18...what do you see that is going on here ? also hosea 13:2...
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Glasgowchick, thanks for taking the time to respond and the tone in which you presented it.

    I never claimed that you said that the bible was clear. I was only clarifying terms like formally sufficient. I also don't deny that we can analyze and come to understand many things in the Bible. Lastly, (hope you reading this as well NetDoc) I acknowledge that one must be assisted by God to understand the things of God, including Scripture. But the question is not whether the Bible is perspicuous to unbelievers (it isn’t), but whether it’s generally perspicuous to its target audience of faithful Christians. I submit that it is not, and that this is proved by your own experience, and by mine, and by that of countless millions of other Christians who all claim to believe “only what the Bible says,” but who believe that it says radically different things. If you submit to something to something outside the Bible (your elders) then that only proves my point that the Bible Alone is not sufficient enough to get you to understand and identify doctrine. I suppose my next question could be why you listen or submit to your elders? As Catholics we admit we do this because we believe God gave men the authority to interpret for the flock when the flock fails to respond to the Holy Spirit, or for whatever other reason like being stubborn, etc. We hold councils to settle doctrinal disputes and if needed the successor of Peter with stand and say "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, (talking about himself) that by my mouth (who's mouth? Why not OUR mouth?) the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."(Acts 15:7)

    This is how we settle differences glasgowchick. Look at Christianity for the past 500 years as proof of this interpretation chaos. Not only has non-catholic christians not been able to arrive at a unified version of Christianity to which they can all subscribe, but they’ve spawned dozens of different versions of Christianity, and they haven’t been able to advance a step in resolving any of the myriad theological conflicts that have arisen from their conflicting interpretations of Scripture. I think this casts considerable doubt on the truth of the original assertion that Bible Alone is a workable alternative to the Catholic system it attempted to replace.

    Let me know your thoughts.

    The least in Christ
    ~Victor
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    NetDoc, here is a link explaining. Written by Scott. We should leave this for another day guys.
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=151743#post151743

    NetDoc, the point is that there is no way besides using our own human faculities to identify truth. How do you recognize truth ND? Because you're smart? Because you FEEL it? Because you form yourself to what you understand in Scripture? I don't want to be inflammatory ND but those are weak arguments and are no different from the something an atheist or a Mormon can say. In Catholicism, we don’t have that problem because we have an authoritative Magisterium (please make an attempt of trying to understand how the catholic system works before casting stones), which, guided by the Holy Spirit, identifies false doctrines, and proclaims true doctrines. That way, even the simplest Christian, no matter how uneducated he may be, can know what to believe, and what not to believe. In your system, how is the faithful Christian supposed to know which denomination is teaching the truth? I don’t think he can, not for sure anyway, and that’s why I don’t think your system can be the system that Christ intended.

    Can you please clarify. I dont quite understand. :confused:

    ~Victor
     
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  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well first off... the marks are kinda obvious.

    Galations 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
    NIV

    Gee-Whilikers... ALL THAT from the spirit? Whodathunk? So, if you have big issues about using the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure such, take it up with the Big Guy. :D
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    HA! Nice post.... you know, for me, to live is Christ......;)
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Yo Vic,

    Most "misunderstandings" have their origins in disobedience.

    In other words, disobedience occurs in the presence of a complete understanding of the truth. (Romans 1 & 2).

    The Spirit is doing it's bit, but we are not listening to the Spirit. It has always been thus.
     
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