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non-creationism?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Eddi, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi currently engaged in spiritual warfare

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    I’ve just been reading this on Wikipedia:

    Jainism and non-creationism - Wikipedia

    It got me thinking…

    I believe in a God who has always existed and was not created, who is the un-moved mover whose existence transcends our frail human notions of time and causation.

    And yet I believe that out of God’s existence came creation’s existence - the existence of the physical universe we’re all in now. I believe there was a time when this universe did not exist whereas God has always existed. I believe that God caused our physical universe to exist. And that he created the universe out of nothing except his own existence using his creative power.

    Does that make me a creationist or a non-creationist?

    I think that perhaps it makes me a creationist when it comes to the physical universe, but a non-creationist when it comes to God - and I realise this is based on a distinction between the two that perhaps others don’t share...


    I believe that the physical universe was created by something (or rather someone) who was themselves non-created. So if this is the case, could we say that the physical universe is ultimately non-created?

    I don't think so.

    What do people think about all this?

    I am especially interested in the beliefs of those who believe in some kind of supreme being, higher power, or supernatural order. You know who you are :D
     
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  2. Sirona

    Sirona Hindu Wannabe

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    I've never been a genius in philosophy but I think what you describe is similar to "deism".
     
  3. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Except that the physical universe has always existed in one form or another in constant change. The universe itself has the ability to change and create. Maybe the universe created gods and goddesses to as seen in some mythology but no higher power needed to explain our universe.
     
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  4. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Your belief, as you expressed it, makes you a creationist. You believe that the universe was created by an uncreated deity ex nihilo. That's the definition of creationism.
     
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  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Except that it isn't, at least as the term creationist is generally used nowadays.
     
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  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    That is 'Advaita Hinduism' (non-duality).
    Now in 'Advaita' also, there are two kinds of people.
    1. Those who think that there is actually a creation and that God/Supreme Soul/Brahman cares about his creation.
    2. Then there are those who do not think that there is any creation. They say that all that you perceive is just an illusion ('maya'). Of course, the illusion is caused by the very existence of Brahman. They believe that whatever caused the illusion does not care about it.
    I do not qualify for what you wrote at the end of your post. I am a strong atheist.
     
    #6 Aupmanyav, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    This, taken from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "At a broad level, a Creationist is someone who believes in a god who is absolute creator of heaven and earth, out of nothing, by an act of free will."

    Now, the fact that there area bunch of very silly varieties of that -- like "young earth creationists" such as Ken Ham, complicates matters, but what @Eddi wrote fits the definition above very well, indeed.
     
  8. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'd a feeling you would dig out a philosophy definition. We may have done all this before, but in common usage today the term creationism means something far narrower, as we both know, I suspect.
     
  9. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I am aware...that's always a problem when we co-opt words and terms for our own purposes. But for @Eddi's question, what other answer can one give, really?
     
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  10. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I think that nowadays, to avoid confusion, when using it in the sense of what one might call formal, philosophical creationism, one needs to make clear this is different from the meaning that creationism has in common usage, e.g. in the sense of, say, the Enclopaedia Britannica definition of it.
     
  11. ManSinha

    ManSinha Well-Known Member

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    Gita 7:6

    tad-yonīni bhūtāni sarvāṇītyupadhāraya
    ahaṁ kṛitsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā


    etat yonīni—these two (energies) are the source of; bhūtāni—living beings; sarvāṇi—all; iti—that; upadhāraya—know; aham—I; kṛitsnasya—entire; jagataḥ—creation; prabhavaḥ—the source; pralayaḥ—dissolution; tathā—and
    Translation
    BG 7.6: Know that all living beings are manifested by these two energies of mine. I am the source of the entire creation, and into me it again dissolves.
     
  12. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    It does technically make you a creationist, but since some scientists seem to admit the possibility that the universe came out of nothing your beliefs are not as easily dismissable as the view of a young earth, or the view that life did not evolve.
     
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I tend to agree with you (there’s a first, lol!). I would classify him as a “creationist in the broad sense.” I call myself that. But I staunchly refuse any attempt to classify me as a YEC. I am not, nor ever will be.
     
  14. February-Saturday

    February-Saturday Devil Worshiper

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    Gnostic Christian beliefs are often described by their differences to Catholicism and Orthodoxy on a number of topics, Creationism would be one of them.

    Both the Orthodox and the Catholic churches teach Creationism, and as far as I'm aware most Protestant sects agree with them. By contrast, Gnosticism teaches Emanationism, which is closer to Christian Cabala. The difference between Creationism and Emanationism is comparable to the difference between Deism and Panentheism.

    As such, technically, I don't believe in the God most people refer to, because I don't believe in an external deity that created the world. Instead, I believe in concentric "aeons" that get further from Substance and terminate in our world, with each subsequent one having its own archon. It's very similar to the concept of planes in Theosophy, if you're familiar with that.

    Rather than confuse you with the more complex Ophite Diagrams, I'll share a simplified look at one representation of the aeons from Gnostic alchemy (which became syncretic with the planets):

    [​IMG]

    [Michelangelo Caetani, 1855, I couldn't find a smaller example with this much detail, much apologies]

    It's a gradient from substance through matter in the same way the layers of the ocean are a gradient from the sun through water. As such, there's not really a distinct line between where one aeon ends and the next one begins. Instead of having 7 days of creation, we have 7 layers of expansion.
     
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