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Non-Christians. Why do you care so much about Christians and Christianity?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Really.

Your organizations, your donations to them, and your clergy's housing are subsidized by the government.

Your religion's lobbyists shape secular law. Your churches are exempt from all sorts of normal legal requirements.

Non-believing politicians are generally unelectable. For the most part, politicians have to give lip-service to your religion to stay electable.

Your religion is represented by many advisory groups at the UN. In one case, a church of your religion has even been granted the status of a state.

Countless nations worldwide have an official state church of your religion.

Cases where members of your religion are persecuted for their faith are much more likely to be at the hands of a competing denomination of your religion than at the hands of a non-believer or a believer of some other religion.

Christianity isn't the underdog; it's the establishment.

Maybe the only reason it isn't worse is because there are so many Christians? Certainly, by some comment, it does seem to be a possibility.
Yes: the fact that Christianity has lots of adherents is a big part of why it gets the place of privilege that it has.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
And just how are they doing that?

How are they doing that are you kidding me? I get barraged with Christians on facebook witnessing to me, our UU churches in Dallas Fort worth are protested a lot by Christians because they believe they believe UU church's should not be here.

In my Zen Buddhist chat group we had 2 Christians who came in strictly to witness when in reality they were suppose to be there to talk about Zen. But they tricked us ended up witnessing instead. AT one point when I refused to take apt in their bible study because I told them I have mental health issues I cant be argu with you, he told me to partcipate in the conversation or get the hell out of the chatroom he bullied me around.

The owner of the room finally got fed up with and threw both hi and his friend out of the room thank God and I got an apology room the room. WHy do Christians pull stuff like this the constant witnessing and bullying how about the combative attitude up here.They persecute.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
And just how are they doing that?

How are they doing that are you kidding me? I get barraged with Christians on facebook witnessing to me, our UU churches in Dallas Fort worth are protested a lot by Christians because they believe they believe UU church's should not be here.

In my Zen Buddhist chat group we had 2 Christians who came in strictly to witness when in reality they were suppose to be there to talk about Zen. But they tricked us ended up witnessing instead. AT one point when I refused to take apt in their bible study because I told them I have mental health issues I cant be argu with you, he told me to partcipate in the conversation or get the hell out of the chatroom he bullied me around.

The owner of the room finally got fed up with and threw both hi and his friend out of the room thank God and I got an apology room the room. WHy do Christians pull stuff like this the constant witnessing and bullying how about the combative attitude up here.They persecute.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
And just how are they doing that?

How are they doing that are you kidding me? I get barraged with Christians on facebook witnessing to me, our UU churches in Dallas Fort worth are protested a lot by Christians because they believe they believe UU church's should not be here.

In my Zen Buddhist chat group we had 2 Christians who came in strictly to witness when in reality they were suppose to be there to talk about Zen. But they tricked us ended up witnessing instead. AT one point when I refused to take apt in their bible study because I told them I have mental health issues I cant be argu with you, he told me to partcipate in the conversation or get the hell out of the chatroom he bullied me around.

The owner of the room finally got fed up with and threw both hi and his friend out of the room thank God and I got an apology room the room. WHy do Christians pull stuff like this the constant witnessing and bullying how about the combative attitude up here.They persecute.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Debatable.

And as I pointed out earlier, even Hezbollah does charitable work.
Not really.

There are just too many things that Salvation Army, Samaritan Purse, Teen Challenge, Compassion International, World Vision, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, (just don't have enough space to name it all), for you to compare Hezbollah with Christianity.

I wonder what Christianity would look like if you were in charge? :rolleyes:
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
How are they doing that are you kidding me? I get barraged with Christians on facebook witnessing to me, our UU churches in Dallas Fort worth are protested a lot by Christians because they believe they believe UU church's should not be here.

In my Zen Buddhist chat group we had 2 Christians who came in strictly to witness when in reality they were suppose to be there to talk about Zen. But they tricked us ended up witnessing instead. AT one point when I refused to take apt in their bible study because I told them I have mental health issues I cant be argu with you, he told me to partcipate in the conversation or get the hell out of the chatroom he bullied me around.

The owner of the room finally got fed up with and threw both hi and his friend out of the room thank God and I got an apology room the room. WHy do Christians pull stuff like this the constant witnessing and bullying how about the combative attitude up here.They persecute.
Is that anything like what how you barrage Christians on this site? :rolleyes:

But to be fair!!! You are correct that there are Christians who have no manners.

It would be like Penguin said but in reverse, even it the best of groups, you always have fringe crazies.
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I have to go with @Riders on this as it is especially fundamentalist/evangelical Protestants that appear to be the most aggressive here at RF, although certainly not all of them.

Not only here. You should see them on FB. In one closed men's group I belong to, having nothing to do with religion (OK, you twisted my arm... it's Live Bearded Brotherhood... srsly), someone always manages to sneak in a bit of proselytizing and evangelizing. It's quite annoying.The admins and even other members tell them to put a lid on it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not really.

There are just too many things that Salvation Army, Samaritan Purse, Teen Challenge, Compassion International, World Vision, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, (just don't have enough space to name it all), for you to compare Hezbollah with Christianity.
The Salvation Army is a mixed bag. I'm also not convinced that the people in the Salvation Army would stop being charitable if they stopped being Christian.

Samaritan's Purse is one of those "sit through this sermon before we'll feed you" charities. Again: a mixed bag.

As for Teen Challenge:
According to a 2001 New York Times item,[15] it is the opinion of some social scientists that the 86 percent success rate of Teen Challenge is misleading, as it does not count the people who dropped out during the program, and that, like many voluntary NGO's, Teen Challenge picks its clients. The item quotes the Rev. John D. Castellani, then president of Teen Challenge International U.S.A., as saying that most of the addicts have already been through detoxification programs, before they are admitted. In the program's first four-month phase, Castellani said, 25 to 30 percent drop out, and in the next eight months, 10 percent more leave. In their testimony before the United States House Committee on Ways and Means, the Texas Freedom Network Education Fund, have similarly testified that the much-quoted success rates "dramatically distort the truth", due to the lack of reference to the high drop-out rate.[16]
Teen Challenge - Wikipedia

Compassion International seems okay - they get a pretty good rating on Charitable Navigator: Charity Navigator - Rating for Compassion International

World Vision? I knew someone who worked for another NGO in Ghana, trying to help develop local businesses and infrastructure. She told me about when World Vision came to town: they arrived with a few containers full of T-shirts for the non-winning Superbowl team and started handing them out for free. This was the final nail in the coffin for the local textile company making traditional clothing, which ended up shutting down and putting 70 people out of work.

Needless to say, I have mixed feelings about World Vision as well.

So the items for your positive side of the scale have some issues; should we look at the negative side?

I wonder what Christianity would look like if you were in charge? :rolleyes:
There are a number of jobs that my conscience and ethics wouldn't let me accept. "President of Christianity" would be one of them.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am NOT AGRESSIVE METIS. :mad::mad::mad:

AND IF YOU DON'T STOP THAT, I'M COMING OVER TO YOUR HOME AND HAVE A PRAYER VIGIL!!

;)
But isn't it true that you are a congregational leader at the Church of the Rabid Pit-Bull? Isn't that the one whereas communion is real blood and chunks of flesh and baptism is immersion in super-heated oil? Maybe that's where the title "friars" comes from? :shrug:


:tonguewink:

Have a great weekend, my friend. :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It would be like Penguin said but in reverse, even it the best of groups, you always have fringe crazies.
The thing about churches, though, is that often the tithes of the moderates go to support the fringe crazies, so even the moderates have an asterisk on any good they do.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
@KenS - IMO, Christianity is mostly self-serving. Yes, a bit of a Christian's tithes might go to charity and a bit might go to lobbying for hateful laws, but both are small compared to what they spend on church facilities, pastors, music directors, etc. IOW, Christianity is mostly focused on providing for its own clubhouses and their staff, and on programming for its members.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But isn't it true that you are a congregational leader at the Church of the Rabid Pit-Bull? Isn't that the one whereas communion is real blood and chunks of flesh and baptism is immersion in super-heated oil? Maybe that's where the title "friars" comes from? :shrug:


:tonguewink:

Have a great weekend, my friend. :)
May you have a great Sabbath too.

Interestingly enough, I remember being on a tour when the guide actually called Christians cannibals. It was in my younger years and it caught me so off guard that my mind went on the blink. :)
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Why do you create a scenario that is so ridiculous? Do you always create your own crazy scenario?
Are you being serious here? I have LITERALLY been asked exactly this sort of question by theists many multiple times. My example was a bit paraphrased, but that's the gist in its entirety. This forum is replete with posts that ask very similar questions or make similar claims. The question is just that: "What keeps you from doing whatever you want?" Within which they include hurting people to further yourself, taking things you want that don't belong to you, etc. - even killing. I guess only atheists who come up against this stuff see this as one of the oldest tricks in the book. I suppose it is never used in believer-to-believer interactions - so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you have never seen this line of reasoning or tactic used. Doesn't make it any less prevalent to those of us who argue the other side.

I view it quite differently (of course). When I hear of a person who thinks so highly of himself, I think pride has gone to his head. It takes more to admit where he isn't as good as he would like to be. I guess the person who thinks he is all that, in reality, has no strength at all.
And this is the assumption I have to deal with at all times from believers. That my non-belief is tied to some form of "pride." Believe me, I understand that I amount to nothing at all in the grand scheme. I buy next to nothing for myself - many times not even essentials until I am thread-bare in need, my time is sparingly spent on myself, I abhor social media and the people who vie for attention on it, I don't discuss unsubstantiated personal matters or "gossip" - I literally could not care less about people's personal disparaging words against one another unless there is a lesson in it to be learned about the person/people involved, the source is credible, and I know it isn't just gossip - and even then I wouldn't even think to bring such things up in conversation with anyone else - it literally does not cross my mind to do so. I don't brag, don't climb social ladders. Don't toot my own horn to get ahead. None of those things even matter in the slightest from my perspective. I do make judgments, of course - but it is only when I feel some behavior is at odds with what the person/ideology portraying itself is truly trying to represent that I bring any judgments forward. And I only ever speak from my own, personal experience. If I haven't experienced it, I tend to only let information become background - for future use only if any personal experience I gain verifies the information. In all the examples I brought up, I either witnessed it first hand or talked directly to the people involved (for example - the couple who tithed, asked the church for help, and were summarily denied - I was close to them, knew exactly what they were going through, and managed to overhear some parts of their conversations with the pastor on a few occasions, besides speaking with them myself).

nobody can be as great as you are. I guess you are just above everybody else. Well... at least we can look up to you to emulate.
Do you think I haven't been taken to task by my "own kind" on occasion? Are you joking? Do you think I believe I didn't deserve it when it did happen? I am, by no means, "great." In fact, NONE of us are. The sooner everyone learns to accept that, the better in my opinion. No "celebrity" is worth following, no leader automatically worthy of allegiance. People must prove themselves, and their importance is entirely subjective - held by none but the group to whom they have proven their ability to respect and garner respect - and even those "important" people always have to be cognizant that they aren't truly important - that anyone outside their circle only holds them in the regard of a fellow human. Greater or lesser respect comes with the building of relationships. No one is automatically or objectively "important" beyond basic human considerations. It just doesn't work that way.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The thing about churches, though, is that often the tithes of the moderates go to support the fringe crazies, so even the moderates have an asterisk on any good they do.
And I know you are the expert on the matter. I'm just a lowly person who hasn't seen what you purport.

Like Compassion International feeding over a million fringe crazy hungry children and giving them an education... it's just horrible what they do.

Oh... and your supportive site information?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
@KenS - IMO, Christianity is mostly self-serving. Yes, a bit of a Christian's tithes might go to charity and a bit might go to lobbying for hateful laws, but both are small compared to what they spend on church facilities, pastors, music directors, etc. IOW, Christianity is mostly focused on providing for its own clubhouses and their staff, and on programming for its members.

Yes... you can find you-tube opinions on just about anything.

Dentists are like that too... just self serving because they spend it on their offices, their cars and houses, employees and do almost nothing for the people that come in and sit in their chairs.

YUP! I can see your point completely! :confused:

I wish those dentists would just put up a tent and do their thing al fresco.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes... you can find you-tube opinions on just about anything.

Dentists are like that too... just self serving because they spend it on their offices, their cars and houses, employees and do almost nothing for the people that come in and sit in their chairs.

YUP! I can see your point completely! :confused:

I wish those dentists would just put up a tent and do their thing al fresco.
I have no beef with dentists, though I would if they tried to get their practices to be declared charities.

There's nothing wrong with self-interest. Just don't make it out to be something it's not, and don't ask me to pay for your hobbies.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And I know you are the expert on the matter. I'm just a lowly person who hasn't seen what you purport.

Like Compassion International feeding over a million fringe crazy hungry children and giving them an education... it's just horrible what they do.

Oh... and your supportive site information?
I think you missed the part where I said that Compassion International looks okay, as well as the links I posted.

The World Vision story was told to me in person, but a quick Googling will show you the criticism of their practices.

And in any case, we're still talking about a balance between good and bad. You've listed off some things that you think are good about Christianity, but we'll need to consider it against the bad before we can establish whether Christianity is a net positive or negative.

Edit: on one side, we have Compassion International; on the other side, we have places like Mount Cashel. Has the net impact of Christianity on orphans been positive or negative? I'm not sure.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I think you missed the part where I said that Compassion International looks okay, as well as the links I posted.
There are any number of solid Christian organizations like that. A big part of the reason I work with Friends of Haiti, a Catholic organization, is because I know the people who run the local operation personally. I know what they do with every dime I give.
What I also know is that it is supported by nonChristian people like myself, and my support probably gets put in the Christian charity category by people like @KenS.
Tom
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Is that anything like what how you barrage Christians on this site? :rolleyes:

But to be fair!!! You are correct that there are Christians who have no manners.

It would be like Penguin said but in reverse, even it the best of groups, you always have fringe crazies.


Wow well lets see. This place is strictly for debate and chat on other stuff. When I debate Christianity its not bullying or trying to convert people, its called debate. This is an appropriate place for it.


When I'm in my chatroom for Zen Buddhists only, its a place that actually doesn't allow people to come too. You have to be invited by a Zen Buddhist who is convinced you are a Zen Buddhist, its a place to strictly talk about Zen and nothing else. Actually other religions are not allowed to join. Its closed. These 2 people lied and scammed their way into getting into the room.

Then they bullied everyone into talking about the bible and hell and the devil. They harrassed us and people ignored them. I told him I wasn't interested in the conversation and he bullied me and told me to get the hell out of the room and stay away from it.


Thats against the rules and they got thrown out and banned. So no I have never been thrown out and banned out of this room for bullying people into talking to me .SO no Id say theres a huge difference between me and them.

I actually tried to be nice to them.I told them I had a church that could teach me the bible and I didn't need a bible study and I couldn't take part in the conversation because I didn't want to argue with them. He bullied me to get out that's pretty shocking to me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Are you being serious here? I have LITERALLY been asked exactly this sort of question by theists many multiple times. My example was a bit paraphrased, but that's the gist in its entirety. This forum is replete with posts that ask very similar questions or make similar claims. The question is just that: "What keeps you from doing whatever you want?" Within which they include hurting people to further yourself, taking things you want that don't belong to you, etc. - even killing. I guess only atheists who come up against this stuff see this as one of the oldest tricks in the book. I suppose it is never used in believer-to-believer interactions - so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you have never seen this line of reasoning or tactic used. Doesn't make it any less prevalent to those of us who argue the other side.
I can only trust it's true, I haven't read those post but... so?

And this is the assumption I have to deal with at all times from believers. That my non-belief is tied to some form of "pride."
That isn't what I said. Are you changing the subject?

I either witnessed it first hand or talked directly to the people involved (for example - the couple who tithed, asked the church for help, and were summarily denied - I was close to them, knew exactly what they were going through, and managed to overhear some parts of their conversations with the pastor on a few occasions, besides speaking with them myself).
Did you help them? Did you hear the whole story? Do

Do you think I haven't been taken to task by my "own kind" on occasion? Are you joking? Do you think I believe I didn't deserve it when it did happen? I am, by no means, "great." In fact, NONE of us are.
The picture you were painting was how great you were.

You are now speaking my language.

I'll fully admit to having a certain degree of prejudice toward Christianity. When time and time again I have been completely and utterly disappointed (or even disgusted, to be brutally honest) by what I have seen... what would you expect? I do give each and every person the benefit of the doubt upon first meeting - and I don't want you to think I haven't met any good people who were Christian. But I adamantly assert that the "good" part of those people had NOTHING to do with the fact that they were Christian, and EVERYTHING to do with how they treated other people and circumstances. This I know based on what I have seen from the vast majority of Christians I have spoken with, or witnessed the actions of directly relating to their faith and adherence to such. That's where it breaks down - not their humanity - but their religiosity.

But this, which is what we are talking about, is trash talk no matter how you want to paint it or slice it.
 
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