Noah's Ark Found

[dan]

And you feel a lack of data is a conclusive negation of the possibility?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And you feel a lack of data is a conclusive negation of the possibility?

A worldwide flood would be hard to miss.

 

[dan]

So you feel that evidence you think should be there, but is not, conclusively proves that it never happened.

 

[kai]

So you feel that evidence you think should be there, but is not, conclusively proves that it never happened.

well what do you think Dan there should be some evidence , unless it was the known world they were talking about and not the whole world at all

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So you feel that evidence you think should be there, but is not, conclusively proves that it never happened.

Precisely. If a worldwide flood occured, there would be ample worldwide evidence. The only thing that we have that would suggest it is a handful of ancient myths.

That's not convincing evidence.

 

[dan]

Precisely. If a worldwide flood occured, there would be ample worldwide evidence. The only thing that we have that would suggest it is a handful of ancient myths.

That's not convincing evidence.

I'm not trying to convince you. I could care less what you believe.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not trying to convince you. I could care less what you believe.

That's an odd response. Since when are we caring what eachother believes?

 

[Smoke]

Have you seen how many different ways people have tried to date up to Exodus? I don't feel it can be done with any degree of confidence.

Well, we're talking about dating a mythical event. But once a person makes up his mind which text he prefers (Masoretic Text, or Septuagint, for instance), it's just a matter of adding up the numbers.

If you believe the Genesis accounts are factual, you can go from Adam to Jacob with a fair degree of certainty; the only ambiguity has to do with Terah's age at the time of Abraham's birth. Then based on Jacob's age (130) when he entered Egypt, the time the Children of Israel were in Egypt (430 years) and the time from the Exodus to the Temple of Solomon (480 years), you can date the Exodus and the Temple in relation to Adam with only a slight margin of error -- that uncertainty about Terah's exact age when Abraham was born. And most commentators seem pretty certain that he was seventy when Abraham was born, so if you accept that, you've swept away the last doubt.

 

[Smoke]

So you feel that evidence you think should be there, but is not, conclusively proves that it never happened.

It's not conclusive proof; it's notoriously difficult to prove a negative. It must be conceded that the myth of Noah's Flood, while less likely to be factual than the Well of Mimir or the war between the Aesir and the Vanir, is not completely unimaginable.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It must be conceded that the myth of Noah's Flood... is not completely unimaginable.

I guess it depends on how you imagine. If it's linked at all to reality, some pretty simple problems arise. I've not yet seen a credible hypothesis that can explain where all the water came from and where it all went if a world-wide flood occured.

Localized floods, however, are easy enough to imagine.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The article claims that Josh McDowell was there. His ministry headquarters is in Dallas - just about 45 miles from here. I shot him an email.
====


Did ya'll know that Brannon S. Howse is claiming that Josh McDowell recently went to Iran and discovered Noah's Ark?

Since it's not promoted on Josh's website, I thought you should know how his name is being used.

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&ArticleID=813

Blessings,
Nathan

FWIW, I did receive email confirmation from Josh McDowell's ministry that he did in fact participate in the expedition:

====

Nathan,

Josh recently did go to Iran on a search for Noah's Ark. I don't believe there is any conclusive evidence at this point as to whether or not the Ark was discovered.

In His service,
Penny Woods
Josh McDowell Ministry​

 

[Smoke]

I guess it depends on how you imagine. If it's linked at all to reality, some pretty simple problems arise. I've not yet seen a credible hypothesis that can explain where all the water came from and where it all went if a world-wide flood occured.

Localized floods, however, are easy enough to imagine.

My grandmother was convinced that Noah's Flood was an actual event, but that it was a local, Mesopotamian flood and not a worldwide deluge. Myself, I lean toward the view that flood myths may have some basis in fact, but not enough to make it worthwhile considering them as anything but myths.

I've certainly never seen any credible explanation for a worldwide flood.

 

[Smoke]

Nathan,

Josh recently did go to Iran on a search for Noah's Ark. I don't believe there is any conclusive evidence at this point as to whether or not the Ark was discovered.

In His service,
Penny Woods
Josh McDowell Ministry​

That's what I suspected. Given McDowell's high profile, it would have been too risky to claim he'd been along if he hadn't.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

dan, please point me to the post where you counter the argument made in bible.org, and explain why we should give more credance to your feelings than to a broad consensus among scholars.

It's post number 80. I don't know how to make a link or anything like that.

You are quite right. I did, indeed, fail to take note of that post. First: my apologies - there was no intent to ignore you. Now, let's see what we have ...

Oh, I feel so inferior. I guess credentials make a person intelligent.

No, but, all else being equal, credentials warrant a presumption of credibility. It was you, after all, who quickly and proudly proclaimed that you were pursuing a PhD.

And every single one of these words has several different meanings, both literal and metaphorical. Hebrew rarely is without metaphors and allegories. "Evening" is 'erev in Hebrew, and it can be translated "evening," "night," "sunset" or "end of the day," just like boqer, the Hebrew word for "morning," can also be "break of day," "sunlight, ""beginning of day," "dawning" and "coming of light." All of these words refer to components of the "day," irrespective of the literal nature of its use.

The 'argument' here goes something like this: words can have multiple meanings so meaning is always ambiguous - or - Hebrew is rich in metaphor therefore all hebrew is metaphoric. It is an argument even unworthy of someone proudly pursuing a PhD while being contemptuous of scholarly credentials.

Just because God says he rested on His Sabbath day so we do to doesn't mean the "day" has to be equal.

You can [and do] make it mean anything you want. The fact remains that the seminal works on Shabbat (Tractate Shabbat, Shabbat by Dayan Grunfeld, The Sabbath by Abraham Joshua Heschel, along with the translations and commentary associated with the JPS Tanakh, the Stone Edition Tanach, Etz Hayim, and the more recent efforts of Alter and Friedman) suggest nothing other than a 24-hour day. Though of clearly no import to you, I'm sure that others will recognize the many decades of serious scholarship that lies behind this consensus.

The Feast of Tabernacles is supposed to commemorate Moses' wanderings in the wilderness, but he wandered a lot longer than eight days. The land has a Sabbath as well, but it lasts a whole year.

But this is simply obfuscation.

Exodus 20:7-10 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

There is no similar correspondence to be found with respect to Sukkot, which is both a harvest festival and a commemoration. The Land Sabbath is derivative.

Also, when the Hebrew word יוֹם (yom) is used with a numerical adjective, it refers to a literal day.

Not necessarily. This is a theory arrived at if you already conclude that the "day" in question is a 24 hour period.

No - this is an inference arrived at by studying Hebrew usage.

The scriptures in question also don't mention an evening or a morning for the seventh day. All the other days ended, but that day apparently hasn't ended yet. I know how you don't like to read stuff into the scriptures, so you'll need to explain that.

You know very little about how I deal with scripture. That aside, the fact that a narrative is other than exhaustive in no way argues that it is ambiguous in those particulars that are, in fact, addressed.​

You remain unconvincing and undeserving of any presumption of credibilty, dan, but I do thank you for your efforts in addressing my question.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My grandmother was convinced that Noah's Flood was an actual event, but that it was a local, Mesopotamian flood and not a worldwide deluge. Myself, I lean toward the view that flood myths may have some basis in fact, but not enough to make it worthwhile considering them as anything but myths.

I've certainly never seen any credible explanation for a worldwide flood.

There is evidence for localized floods in many Mesopotamain cities, and I think that several cities were flooded at about the same time.

There is no evidence for an ancient flood in any of the Palestinian cities.

That's telling.

 

[dan]

No, but, all else being equal, credentials warrant a presumption of credibility. It was you, after all, who quickly and proudly proclaimed that you were pursuing a PhD.

I was not boasting, I was merely answering your query into my experience with the Hebrew language.

The 'argument' here goes something like this: words can have multiple meanings so meaning is always ambiguous - or - Hebrew is rich in metaphor therefore all hebrew is metaphoric. It is an argument even unworthy of someone proudly pursuing a PhD while being contemptuous of scholarly credentials.

You keep bringing that up. Does your whole argument have to be held up by prodding at this misunderstanding? I told you I was ursuing a Ph.D. because you asked what kind of understnading of Hebrew I had. I quantified my understanding in the best way I knew how. I think you will find that most Ph.Ds also disagree with each other about a lot of stuff, but it's not because any of them hate Ph.Ds in and of themselves.

I did not say the meaning was always metaphoric, but a tree cannot sprout and grow to bearing fruit in one 24 hour period. I therefore conclude that when it says this happened in a "day," the "day" must refer to another classification of time. Forgive my contemptuousness, but my logic left me no other choice.

You can [and do] make it mean anything you want. The fact remains that the seminal works on Shabbat (Tractate Shabbat, Shabbat by Dayan Grunfeld, The Sabbath by Abraham Joshua Heschel, along with the translations and commentary associated with the JPS Tanakh, the Stone Edition Tanach, Etz Hayim, and the more recent efforts of Alter and Friedman) suggest nothing other than a 24-hour day. Though of clearly no import to you, I'm sure that others will recognize the many decades of serious scholarship that lies behind this consensus.

Hundreds of years of scholarship can be (and often are) thrown out the window in an instant. Decades of studying do not create truth. My mind will not rest with evidence you have shown. It does not make sense to me, so I continue to search for an answer.

But this is simply obfuscation.

Exodus 20:7-10 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is no similar correspondence to be found with respect to Sukkot, which is both a harvest festival and a commemoration. The Land Sabbath is derivative.

\

The Lord's "days" are not the same as man's.

No - this is an inference arrived at by studying Hebrew usage.

I agree. The problem is that the studying went on under the assumption that the days were 24 hour periods. The logic went like this: "I bet if we look at all the other times that yom appears with a numerical adjective they'll all refer to a 24 hour period." Were this not the case that fact would not have been convincing enough to warrant inclusion in the conclusion. Different translations are often rendered despite every other occurance being uniform.

You know very little about how I deal with scripture. That aside, the fact that a narrative is other than exhaustive in no way argues that it is ambiguous in those particulars that are, in fact, addressed.

You remain unconvincing and undeserving of any presumption of credibilty, dan, but I do thank you for your efforts in addressing my question.

My purpose was never to convince you one way or another, but to show you that it is difficult to arrive at an accurate date when the evidence can be viewed in so many different ways (outside of Google).

 

[dan]

There is evidence for localized floods in many Mesopotamain cities, and I think that several cities were flooded at about the same time.

There is no evidence for an ancient flood in any of the Palestinian cities.

That's telling.

Take a look at this site:

http://www.essene.com/Bible/flood.htm

 

[Smoke]

Take a look at this site:

http://www.essene.com/Bible/flood.htm

Where on that site do you find evidence for flooding in Palestine?

 

[dan]

None, just thought you might find it interesting.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hundreds of years of scholarship can be (and often are) thrown out the window in an instant.

But dan, you've given us no reason why we should expect that this is one of those cases. All else being equal, when asked to choose between "hundreds of years of scholarship " and the self-serving apologetics of someone pursuing a PhD, the most reasonable approach would seem to be to defer to the scholarship. Thanks for the discussion. Please let me know if and when you come up with something more ... and [sincerely] best of luck in your pursuit.