Noah's Ark Found

[Smoke]

Example: A scripture in Samuel, if translated strictly from the original Hebrew says the following: "And Saul was one year old, and Saul reigned two years." It almost every other translation we read "And Saul reigned one year, and after Saul had reigned two years..." You know why they're different? Because we have no idea what they meant, so we guess.

This is the first time I've ever heard anybody attribute the difficulty with that text to the vagaries of the Hebrew language rather than to problems with the text.

The reason we know what the Bible says at all is because we guess and then look to see if our guess makes sense in other places it is used. One word can be translated to mean fifty different things in our Bible. It's not them that are lacking in understanding, it is us.

So if the scripture says:

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: and the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
​

we really have no way of knowing what that means? We couldn't venture to say that it means Adam lived 130 years, begot a son, and lived 800 years after that, for a total lifespan of 930 years? Those numbers might mean anything? We have no way of knowing what they mean?

Don't question my conclusions when the best you can do is type "Hebrew Bible" into a search engine and find something that suites your own purposes.

I will continue to question your conclusions at my own discretion until you provide a better explanation for them than: "I know better than you: don't dare question me."

 

[Smoke]

Oh, I feel so inferior. I guess credentials make a person intelligent.

If we are meant to have learned anything from this thread, it must be that credentials are worthless, but the pursuit of credentials confers authority.

 

[dan]

If we are meant to have learned anything from this thread, it must be that credentials are worthless, but the pursuit of credentials confers authority.

I said nothing of the sort. Again you put words in my mouth to try to paint me as a moron. You know perfectly well, as I have been stating it over and over again on these threads, that I respect evidence, not credentials. I have always advocated letting the evidence speak for itself. I answered your question of my experience with the Hebrew language by filling you in on exactly that and you returned with "Oh, that's all?" like sitting in your den in front of your computer gives you access to the world's mysteries. I investigate evidence, not "This guy has a Ph.D. and you don't yet, so he's right."

 

[gnostic]

[FONT=&quot]

I think you wrong, but it's not because of faulty math, it's because you're trying to add up numbers that don't mean anything. I have stacks of books just on how to reconcile all the dates from the reigns of the kings in Chronicles, and that's stuff we can prove actually happened!

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[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I did the calculation for mostly my curiosity and amusement.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The second reason is that I would like some sort of timeframe to put the bible in some of chronological perspective. Whether my calculation is right or not, is not really the point. As I said, I would like to get my orientation or perspective, in accordance with the time I am given in the bible. I didn't say that I believe in them.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]

Ask anyone who is a serious student of Hebrew if they think it is possible to nail down all the dates in the Bible and they will tell you you're crazy.

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[FONT=&quot]Well, you won't be the first one to call me crazy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't even believe in the Genesis, such as the Creation, Flood, people living beyond 120 years, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc, or in the Exodus with burning bush, the 7 plagues, Angel of Death and death of first-born sons, parting the Red Sea, etc. They are very interesting in a mythological point of view, but not in reality.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you believe in such thing, wouldn't you be considered as the "crazy one", Dan?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am only basing my calculation on what is written in the bible with the Jewish Era of the Jewish calendar, to work out the timeframe, as I said, out of curiosity and amusement, not because I believe in the Genesis. This is simply scholarship mixed with calculation. And then share what I have worked out with other people in my website. Nothing more, nothing less[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is that a bad thing, Dan? What's wrong with sharing what I have learned over the years with other people?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Have you seen my website, Timeless Myths?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am more like an amateur researcher and scholar. I search for translations of various literature, concerning either ancient or medieval mythology, and piece them together, then summaries them in my own words, before posting it on my website. It can use as a resource for people who are studying, or for myth enthusiasts. The other reason why I created this mythological site, at heart, I am a storyteller.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have done the same thing with my other site, Dark Mirrors of Heaven, looking at other (translated) primary sources to piece together Judaeo-Christian creation myth that most people don't know about. By using Jewish literatures, like the Talmudic Haggada or the [/FONT]Pseudepigrapha [FONT=&quot]books of Jubilees, Enoch, and others, and the Gnostic texts. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All this, to give people an insight at the Judaeo-Christian religion, from a different perspective. I am not pushing people to believe in these literatures, for precisely the same reason, I am not pushing people to believe in the bible, or any other religious scriptures. [/FONT]

 

[kai]

gnostic, i for one enjoyed the chat

 

[gnostic]

Well, I try to enjoy myself as best as I can.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In addition I could care less about what other Ph.Ds teach. ... You may be impressed by a man's work because he has a lot of letters behind his name, but I look at the content, not the credentials.

I do not find that approach to be at all worthy of respect. Be that as it may, you must at least recognize that your willingness to reject scholarship in favor of self-serving content says a good deal about your respect for such scholarship.

 

[dan]

I have rejected what I feel to be a false conclusion and I have given my reasons why. I have provided scholarship to back up my "rejection" and you have chosen to remain "unresponsive" again. I have said nothing against scholarship, I have just rejected the "He's a Ph.D. so you have to accept his conclusions irrespective of what you have studied" crap that you seem to base your arguments on. If you would like to address my evidence (like you demanded of me) then do it, but please quit throwing stupid accusations at me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have rejected what I feel to be a false conclusion and I have given my reasons why. I have provided scholarship to back up my "rejection" and you have chosen to remain "unresponsive" again.

Then please forgive me for overlooking it, Believe me, it was an honest mistake.

So now, if you would, point me to the post where you counter the argument made in bible.org, and explain why we should give more credance to your feelings than to a broad consensus among scholars.

 

[dan]

It's post 80.

I noticed something pretty interesting as I was reading through Genesis 1 & 2 today. I was thinking about this 24 hour day thing and trying to see how it all fits with the scriptures, and I noticed that the scripture says "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit". Another argument for the 24 hour "day" is that plants and animals wouldn't survive if the sun wasn't going up and down in 24 hour increments, but the thought crossed my mind, How many plants are there on the earth are there that can sprout and produce seed in 24 hours? Even better, how many trees are there on the earth that can sprout and produce fruit in 24 hours? The text in no way states that the "day" mentioned was following the rising and setting of the sun, it just says there was evening and morning, a certain day.

Psalm 90:6 says the following: "In the morning it (grass) flourishes, and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades, and withers away." No sun involved in this timetable. The "Day of the Lord" is also a seven year time period; the psalmist say a thousand years in the sight of the Lord are like yesterday. This and more convince me that the "day' in Hebrew is not a 24 hour period.

Considering this and the other evidence I shared do you feel think I am just a stupid kid who cares nothing for scholarship and research? Am I to say to any man with a higher education than me, "I am more convinced by the weight of my own evidence over yours, but since your participation in "scholarly research" is more official than mine I must cede to you the victory"? Do you really feel my methods are not worthy of respect? Does my lack of a Ph.D. render the evidence I have supplied unworthy to be read? Have you considered it? I believe the concensus among these scholars was merely the scholarly confirmation of a preconceived notion. It's the same as New Testament scholars saying the gospels were written after AD 70 because they mention the destruction of Jerusalem and that happened in AD 70 and they will not weigh the evidence with the option that Christ really was prophetic. They already have concluded that the scriptures are fiction. This kind of context is no way to conduct truly objective research. Am I 100% objective? No one is. I believe in the scriptures, but I am not going to intentionally read a conclusion into my research just to substantiate my faith. If I reached the conclusion that my faith was wrong why would I lie or bend the research to feel justified in a faith that I knew was wrong? What is the point of that?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

dan, please point me to the post where you counter the argument made in bible.org, and explain why we should give more credance to your feelings than to a broad consensus among scholars.

 

[dan]

It's post number 80. I don't know how to make a link or anything like that.

 

[Smoke]

It's post number 80.

That post gives reasons for thinking that the days of creation may not be literal days, but gives no reason for thinking that the years of the genealogies in Genesis are not literal years.

 

[gnostic]

As I recalled, the 6 day creation doesn't mention hours, let alone 24 hours, just the whole day was divided into day for light and night for darkness.

And there was evening and there was a morning, a first day.

It also does speak of years or equate the one day with so many years. And it doesn't state that thousands of years or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, between each day of Creation.

Do we talk the creation, literally? Or do we interpret the texts as meaning something else?

That's what I don't understand about Christians. They tends to simplify complex symbols, but tends to complicate literal statement.

When I calculated the timeline for the webpage to get a chronology of the Genesis, I didn't mess with the numbers (age in years). I just use what is provided.

 

[dan]

That post gives reasons for thinking that the days of creation may not be literal days, but gives no reason for thinking that the years of the genealogies in Genesis are not literal years.

If you try to map out the whole geneology of the human race you will find you have to guess fairly often. My problem with the years is more often a problem with the textual integrity than with the Hebrew, but in geneologies "son of" and "begat" and all that stuff often does not refer to biological lines. Lines get blurred often, and, like I said earlier, it takes years and years of research just to guess at reconciling the reigns of many of the kings after the schism between Israel and Judah.

Often large numbers in the Old Testament are confused, and I know for a fact that several numbers were doctored. To multiply a number in Hebrew by ten only requires the presence of the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet. This happened all the time in Chronicles, Kings and Samuel.

I don't feel dating anything past David or so can be done with any degree of accuracy.

 

[Smoke]

I don't feel dating anything past David or so can be done with any degree of accuracy.

But you don't have to. If you can date up to the Exodus, you have a huge jump with the info that the Temple of Solomon was built 480 years later.

 

[dan]

Have you seen how many different ways people have tried to date up to Exodus? I don't feel it can be done with any degree of confidence.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Have you seen how many different ways people have tried to date up to Exodus? I don't feel it can be done with any degree of confidence.

It's hard to date an event that can hardly be accepted as historical in the first place. A plausible date could be supported by the same evidence used to demonstrate its historicity.

 

[kai]

although lots of civilizations have flood myths there is no historical data for a world wide flood is there?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

although lots of civilizations have flood myths there is no historical data for a world wide flood is there?

No. :no: