1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Noah's Ark Found

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Doktormartini, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    It's "miles" that is refered to by the word "is". Please study English before you make fun of me.
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,681
    Ratings:
    +17,437
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I believe that you have misspelled 'referred', Dan.
     
  3. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,218
    Ratings:
    +6,489
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I think if everyone was to concentrate on their English (spelling and grammar), about 3/4 of the members would no longer have fun at the forums, and leave in droves.
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,681
    Ratings:
    +17,437
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I was unaware that you are an hebraist of any note.
    Genesis 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.
    But, I agree: trying to date anything in the Bible is, at the very least, problematic.

    Edited to add the following from bible.org ...
    The first day. The exegetical evidence suggests the word “day” in this chapter refers to a literal twenty-four hour day. It is true that the word can refer to a longer period of time (see Isa 61:2, or the idiom in 2:4, “in the day,” that is, “when”). But this chapter uses “day,” “night,” “morning,” “evening,” “years,” and “seasons.” Consistency would require sorting out how all these terms could be used to express ages. Also, when the Hebrew word &#1497;&#1493;&#1465;&#1501; (yom) is used with a numerical adjective, it refers to a literal day. Furthermore, the commandment to keep the sabbath clearly favors this interpretation. One is to work for six days and then rest on the seventh, just as God did when he worked at creation.​
    Nor have I found any other interpretation in the commentary in the JPS Tanakh, the Stone Edition Tanach, Alter's Five Books of Moses, or the Friedman work.
     
  5. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,609
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    yes it is difficult but if true such a flood would have to be before any recorded history ,or before any cities or civilizations that show no signs of such a cataclysm wouldnt it ,i know the nile flooded regularly in ancient Egypt but this flood covered the entire world is their any sign of it at all if not it must be very far back, and the prospects of finding anything must diminish the farthur we go
     
  6. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,609
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    i meant wolverine
     
  7. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97

    I am pursuing a Ph.D. in Ancient Near Eastern Languages, with an emphasis on Archaic Hebrew. It tends to give me more of a comprehensive understanding of Hebrew than looking stuff up on the internet.
    Would you like to hear all the different ways that Hebrew word yom is translated in the Bible?

    day, daytime, an extension, era (indefinite period of time), storm, wind, breath, days, time, chronicles, forever, days, daily, when, continually, while, yearly, year, age, as long as, two years, years, always, at all times, at other times, full month, full year, in process of time, birthday, each, elder, everlasting, evermore, full weeks, afternoon, anytime, as long as, in trouble, old, outlived, tomorrow, two, yesterday, and about fifty other ways.

    Many of these are combinations of words that include yom, and several of them are designated by numbers, but to say that it is translated one way in this verse so the translation must stay the same throughout is silly.
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    The "r" key sticks sometimes on my keyboard. I apologize, but I was merely defending my use of grammar and my criticism of the most blatant and common manifestation of the destruction of the English language.
     
  9. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,218
    Ratings:
    +6,489
    Religion:
    Pi π
    If my calculation is right that the biblical Flood happened in 2104 BCE (not that I believe in any flood), then is smack-bang right in the middle when the Sumerian 3rd Dynasty, around the same time many Sumerian legends were written down, including that of Gilgamesh and the Ziusudra's Flood.

    If the Christians are really serious that Abraham flourished during the 18th century, then my calculation is right. Do your own maths, dan, if you think I wrong. There are only 292 years between the Flood and Abraham's birth. So it would be wrong to put the Flood beyond late 22nd century BC.

    Otherwise, the bible's chronology/genealogy is wrong by a thousand years, if you seriously think that the Flood happened before cities, civilisations and writing.
     
  10. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,609
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    i f your calculation is correct that the flood happened in 2104 bce then that puts it smack bang in the middle of the Egyptian first intermediate period, wich carries no sign of the deluge, i dont beleive the story either i think a lot of civilizations founded on flood plains etc hence we have a lot of flood myths, but a world deluge no, i dont think so ,but its fun
     
  11. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,218
    Ratings:
    +6,489
    Religion:
    Pi π
    Yeah, I agreed with you on the 1st Intermediate Period, but Abraham came out of Mesopotamia, not out of Egypt. According to Genesis, one of Ham's descendants moved into Egypt (and Cush), while the Shem's stayed around in Mesopotamia.

    As to the Sumerian Flood legend, if the biblical flood happened in 2104 BCE, then this can't be Ziusudra's flood, since he belong to an even older oral tradition of the Sumerian legend. Gilgamesh's legend is also older oral tradition, because there is possibly a historical king with that name, living around 2600 BCE. Gilgamesh's name in the Sumerian king list, but I don't take this seriously, since many of the kings listed before Gilgamesh have the same exaggeration of the kings' reigns, like pre-Flood Genesis.
     
  12. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    I think you wrong, but it's not because of faulty math, it's because you're trying to add up numbers that don't mean anything. Ask anyone who is a serious student of Hebrew if they think it is possible to nail down all the dates in the Bible and they will tell you you're crazy. I have stacks of books just on how to reconcile all the dates from the reigns of the kings in Chronicles, and that's stuff we can prove actually happened!
     
  13. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,609
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    have you any ideas on when it was dan? how about conventional dating
     
  14. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    I believe it was a lot longer ago than we think, but I've never sat down to try to figure it out once and for all. I think it would be futile.
     
  15. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,892
    Ratings:
    +3,252
    So, the ancient Hebrews didn't have any particular concept of what a year was, and had no means of quantifying things? How very convenient. :rolleyes:
     
  16. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    If you'll go back and take a look you will find that I never said this. These are words that you are putting in my mouth because you don't understand what is being discussed.

    The Ancient Hebrews understood their language a lot better than we do. The only reason we understand it at all is because we can compare the diferent occurances of the words and phrases within similar contexts in other parts of the scriptures. We have made what we beleive to be very accurate guesses as to what they actually meant, but we have no way of verifying this. Example: A scripture in Samuel, if translated strictly from the original Hebrew says the following: "And Saul was one year old, and Saul reigned two years." It almost every other translation we read "And Saul reigned one year, and after Saul had reigned two years..." You know why they're different? Because we have no idea what they meant, so we guess.

    The reason we know what the Bible says at all is because we guess and then look to see if our guess makes sense in other places it is used. One word can be translated to mean fifty different things in our Bible. It's not them that are lacking in understanding, it is us.

    For all we know they had everything recorded down to the day, but what we have is the best we can figure out with the information that was left us, and it's not good enough to make a decision.

    Don't question my conclusions when the best you can do is type "Hebrew Bible" into a search engine and find something that suites your own purposes.
     
  17. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    Sounds accurate since there are men that lived for 900 some odd years which is so unbelievable. It shows their concept of a year is exagerrated.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,681
    Ratings:
    +17,437
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Then you are "pursuing" those who stand head and shoulders above you and clearly disagree with you. Perhaps you'll catch them, even surpass them, but please don't pretend that you are there as yet.
    No. I would like to understand why you chose to be nonresponsive. Please consider addressing the bible.org assertion and argument. Later, you can tell us just how far you've adanced in your pursuits, and why we should therefore accept you as an authority against those responsible for the well received translations mentioned above.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,609
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    i dont think this has anything to do with their concept of a year, more to do with associating age with holiness, wisdom,being touched by god sort of thing .
    Exagerated yes.
     
  20. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +97
    Oh, I feel so inferior. I guess credentials make a person intelligent.

    So I'm supposed to respond to you when you've refused flat out to respond to any of the evidence I've shown you over the weeks and months? Very well.

    And every single one of these words has several different meanings, both literal and metaphorical. Hebrew rarely is without metaphors and allegories. "Evening" is 'erev in Hebrew, and it can be translated "evening," "night," "sunset" or "end of the day," just like boqer, the Hebrew word for "morning," can also be "break of day," "sunlight, ""beginning of day," "dawning" and "coming of light." All of these words refer to components of the "day," irrespective of the literal nature of its use.

    Just because God says he rested on His Sabbath day so we do to doesn't mean the "day" has to be equal. The Feast of Tabernacles is supposed to commemorate Moses' wanderings in the wilderness, but he wandered a lot longer than eight days. The land has a Sabbath as well, but it lasts a whole year.

    Not necessarily. This is a theory arrived at if you already conclude that the "day" in question is a 24 hour period. The other occurances agree with that, but they don't deal with God's schedule independent of man or an issue like the creation of the earth. There is no reason to assume that they are not an exception to that observation. Peter says that "one day is with the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." His timetable works completely independent of ours.

    The scriptures in question also don't mention an evening or a morning for the seventh day. All the other days ended, but that day apparently hasn't ended yet. I know how you don't like to read stuff into the scriptures, so you'll need to explain that.

    In Gen. 2:4 the Hebrew says the heavens and the earth were made in a day. It also mentions the "generations" of the heavens and the earth in that "day" in which they were created.

    I also am very aware that the earth has been around for more than six thousand years. If I interpret that literally then I disagree with pretty much insurmountable evidence. I'm not in the habit of doing that, and at the same time I know that the Bible is the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly.

    In addition I could care less about what other Ph.Ds teach. If I base all my conclusions on what everyone else says then I'm not gonna make a whole lot of progress, am I? You may be impressed by a man's work because he has a lot of letters behind his name, but I look at the content, not the credentials.
     
Loading...