Tell me what absolute historical or scientific claim I have made.angellous_evangellous said:I've often said that God could turn us all into marshmellows for an unspecified amount of time, rewrite history, and turn us back into humans again and no one would ever know.
Now that's a problem when you're trying to make absolute historical and scientific claims.
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Noah's Ark Found
- Thread starter Doktormartini
- Start date
Rejected said:
According to an answers.com article I read, many scientists report that the laws of physics just won't allow for a great global deluge. As, Rejected said before, there just isn't enough moisture in the clouds because there isn't enough water on the face of the earth to be evaporated into that much rain in a 40 day period.
So, no . . . . science will never accept a great flood. However, for the Christian, the explanation is simple: God is omnipotent and he can miraculously cause the rain clouds to send down as much water as he'd like for a 40 day period.
dan said:
As far as the earth being different thousands of years ago . . . . here's a thought though not in a geological sense: Why do most many ancient cultures have a flood story in their earliest histories?
Was it because every society remembers back to Noah since he had to re-populate the earth?
Or, did most ancient civilizations develop near rich fertile lands surrounded by rivers that would, from time to time, flood? Many ancient civilizations thought the whole earth only comprised of their region. What we see today as just several neighboring nations, they saw as the whole planet! So, if a rich delta area flooded, why, the whole earth flooded! And, maybe that's why we have so many different flood accounts in different cultures.
I also find it interesting that Genesis places the garden of Eden near the Tigris, Euphrates and two other rivers I can't remember right now. That's just where the oldest organized civilization of ancient Sumeria / Babylon developed based on archeology. However, this doesn't mean that the oldest traces of *humanity* are found here. Just the oldest civilizations.
dan said:
Well, I'm actually stuck between two opinions. On one hand, I have believed in the Old and New Testaments all my life. That kind of belief is hard to let go. You just know something is true.
But, I wonder sometimes if archeology is the CSI of history. If so, archeology could possibly be telling us a conflicting story from what our holy scriptures have always outlined as true history. And if the historical accounts of our scriptures are found to have embellishments, that calls the whole document into further questioning.
Don't get me wrong, there are relavent historical events, people, and places in the bible. (not familar with the Book of Mormon, but I suppose in there, too) But, how the bible says things happened don't always seem to add up with many archeological findings that are unearthed.
And, I will admit that perhaps scholars are giving a misinterpretation of archeological and anthropological findings. This could be the reason for conflicts with scriputure and archeology. But, some historical findings have really made me think twice about my personal beliefs. This has put me in a "search" mode. Maybe I'll come out stronger than before in my faith. Maybe I'll keep having second thoughts. Not sure yet.
But, I get worried about the thought that archeology can validate the scriputers. Why? Because, that means archeology has the power to undermine the scriptures, too, provided the data honestly conflits with biblical accounts.
kai
ragamuffin
anybody have an idea how old this thing would be,i know they have found some pretty old boats in sediment and the boat found at giza is very old but how old would noahs ark be, and on a mountain open to the elements, i dont have an opinion on whether the story of noah is true or not but i would like to know the age of such a craft and the possibility of anything left now
I just check out the noah's ark article on answers.com. It seems to range between somewhere around 3400 to 2300 BC. This is based on different interpreations of the geneology listings in Genesis, leading up to the flood.
The article speculated that gopher wood could be cedar wood.
That would be cool if we could find some of that adamantium around. Maybe that would be archeological proof that Wolverine was more than a comic book character!
The article speculated that gopher wood could be cedar wood.
That would be cool if we could find some of that adamantium around. Maybe that would be archeological proof that Wolverine was more than a comic book character!
kai
ragamuffin
its all a matter of faith!uruk said:I just check out the noah's ark article on answers.com. It seems to range between somewhere around 3400 to 2300 BC. This is based on different interpreations of the geneology listings in Genesis, leading up to the flood.
The article speculated that gopher wood could be cedar wood.
That would be cool if we could find some of that adamantium around. Maybe that would be archeological proof that Wolverine was more than a comic book character!
gnostic
The Lost One
To Kai,
The Sumerian version of Gilgamesh legend does mention Ziusudra and the Flood in the Death of Gilgames and in independent Flood Story (which is also known as the Eridu Genesis in some circles). These are Sumerian literature were written somewhere between 2300-2000 BC, and are based on older oral traditions. The Sumerian language and literature died out, but their stories were adopted and adapted in the Semitic Akkadian language, and later Babylonian and Assyrian languages.
A more complete Creation/Flood story is available in Akkadian text, called Atrahasis.
You must understand clay tablets are often fragmented, so don't expect any complete translation. This is most unfortunate.
I can suggest two books, which offered better readability than the links I had provided above.
The Epic of Gilgamesh: A New Translation
translated by Andrew George
Penguin Classics, 1999
Myths from Mesopotamia
translated by Stephanie Dalley
Oxford World's Classics, Revised Edition 2000
The 2nd Book has Akkadian flood story, called Atrahasis. While the 1st book have Sumerian version of Gilgamesh legend.
The Sumerian version of Gilgamesh legend does mention Ziusudra and the Flood in the Death of Gilgames and in independent Flood Story (which is also known as the Eridu Genesis in some circles). These are Sumerian literature were written somewhere between 2300-2000 BC, and are based on older oral traditions. The Sumerian language and literature died out, but their stories were adopted and adapted in the Semitic Akkadian language, and later Babylonian and Assyrian languages.
A more complete Creation/Flood story is available in Akkadian text, called Atrahasis.
You must understand clay tablets are often fragmented, so don't expect any complete translation. This is most unfortunate.
I can suggest two books, which offered better readability than the links I had provided above.
The Epic of Gilgamesh: A New Translation
translated by Andrew George
Penguin Classics, 1999
Myths from Mesopotamia
translated by Stephanie Dalley
Oxford World's Classics, Revised Edition 2000
The 2nd Book has Akkadian flood story, called Atrahasis. While the 1st book have Sumerian version of Gilgamesh legend.
kai
ragamuffin
well the egyptian solar boat dates from Old Kingdom, Dynasty IV; 2600-2550 BCE
so that mekes it around 4.5 thousand years old. i take it noahs flood was before the old kingdom so noahs boat would have been on that mountain in the wind and rain for along time, if the story is true theres nothing left of it,--------is there?
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/egypt/giza/boat/boat.html
so that mekes it around 4.5 thousand years old. i take it noahs flood was before the old kingdom so noahs boat would have been on that mountain in the wind and rain for along time, if the story is true theres nothing left of it,--------is there?
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/egypt/giza/boat/boat.html
kai said:
Like you said . . . . it's a matter of faith!
But, really, I believed the Noah story was true all my life. Every time I saw a rainbow, I'd think of Noah, man's sin, God's love for showing some restraint with his anger and not completely wiping man from the face of the earth.
Then . . . . I read about Gilgamesh and all these other flood stories.
That made me say, "Hmmmmmm . . . . ."
As to any material being there, I couldn't say. How durable is wood? Would it become petrified maybe. I couldn't say for sure.
gnostic
The Lost One
In my website (Dark Mirrors of Heaven), I had worked out that the Biblical Flood happened in 2104 BC. See Timeline of the Patriarchs.uruk said:
There are two tables, one just show Patriarchs, while the 2nd table shows the actual events, according to calculating number of years in the Genesis.
By using the Jewish Calendar, I count backward from the Creation to Joseph's time, using the years that Genesis provides. The current Jewish Era is 5766 years (in AD 2006). This mean the Creation is supposed to happened in 3760 BC.
5766 - 2006 = 3760 years
The flood happened when Noah was 600 years old. This work out to be 1656 years after the Creation of Adam (when using my 1st table), so this worked out to be
3760 - 1656 = 2104 BC.
well, gnostic, between the two of us, it's easy to see who is lazy (me) and who is on top of things!
I just did a quick glance at the article, but you did the math.
I'm impressed.
I'm also impressed with the links you offered. I'll check them out. All your sources look quite interesting.
I didn't even know liturature like Gilgamesh existed two months ago!
I just did a quick glance at the article, but you did the math.
I'm impressed.
I'm also impressed with the links you offered. I'll check them out. All your sources look quite interesting.
I didn't even know liturature like Gilgamesh existed two months ago!
Smoke
Done here.
Biblical chronology is a little more complicated than that, though. For instance, James Ussher worked out that the Creation occurred in 4004 B.C. (Specifically, on the eve of 23 October.) The Byzantine chronology formerly endorsed by the Eastern Orthodox Church (and still accepted by many Orthodox Christians) puts the Creation around 5509 BCE -- it's currently the year 7514 by this chronology, and will be 7515 on 14 September 2006.gnostic said:
Further, the number of years between Creation and Noah varies widely depending on the text you use. The Samaritan Pentateuch implies a figure of 1307 years; the Masoretic text, 1656 years; the Ethiopian text, 2242 years; and the Septuagint, 2242 or 2262 years (depending on whether the Alexandrine reading is accepted or not).
Combining these various chronologies, we could arrive at a date for Noah anywhere from ca. 4200 BCE to ca. 1500 BCE.
Since we're talking about fictional events, though, I don't see any harm in dating the flood whenever you like -- even 1957, if you prefer that date.
gnostic
The Lost One
I had based my calculation on the Jewish calendar and the Jewish Era, and the Tanakh (Masoretic text), and then worked backward, using the Genesis from Creation to Joseph. I didn't try to calculate the whole Bible, because the book don't always have number of years between each generation. The years between Joseph and Moses can't be worked out precisely, because it doesn't allow me to calculate the time between each generation.
In Genesis for example, it provide me not only the year that Noah died, but more importantly, how old was when his son Shem was born. This helped me to calculate the generation, not just when he died. It also give me, when he boarded the Ark.
I don't know how accurate the Jewish Era, to be compare with our era of BC and AD, but it does give me a framework to work with.
I don't know how the Byzantine chronology worked, but it would seemed that they based it on the Septuagint Bible had worked their calculations, but I must say the Alexandrian Era is not a good one to use.
The Masoretic text is the same as that used by other English speaking bible, like King James' Version. So far, I don't have translation of the Septuagint bible. I can only work with texts that I have available.
In Genesis for example, it provide me not only the year that Noah died, but more importantly, how old was when his son Shem was born. This helped me to calculate the generation, not just when he died. It also give me, when he boarded the Ark.
I don't know how accurate the Jewish Era, to be compare with our era of BC and AD, but it does give me a framework to work with.
I don't know how the Byzantine chronology worked, but it would seemed that they based it on the Septuagint Bible had worked their calculations, but I must say the Alexandrian Era is not a good one to use.
The Masoretic text is the same as that used by other English speaking bible, like King James' Version. So far, I don't have translation of the Septuagint bible. I can only work with texts that I have available.
Pah
Uber all member
Completely off topic and I'll answer it in kind by eliminating what confused you. "There is water" Since it is one body of water (it would have to be if it covered the earth) you can not say "there are waters" nor would it be grammatical to say "There are water".dan said:
We really do discourage grammer and spelling police at RF.
gnostic
The Lost One
I am not trying to work out precise days or hours, dan. Just years, and when Noah's Flood happened, according to the Genesis and the Jewish Era. Working out hours and days are futile, because the Bible doesn't provide such information, that's why I think Byzantine calendar is somewhat crappy due to lack of consistency of their calendar.dan said:
The Genesis at least provides me with the age of the father when his son is born, and when he dies. It doesn't provide me with month, day, and hour, so I am dubious of anyone providing me with that sort of precise dates.