Noah's Arc and the Flood?

[shunyadragon]

Contradictions because you are at once stating no "world wide"flood, assuming world wide means what it states in the torah; I suppose you have the hebrew to back that up, and also stating that there was flooding in a time period /ice age, that is within mythic storytelling. So which is it?
I don't think you understand how myth works, .

The dominant interpretation of the Biblical text has been a 'world flood' up until recently, when the evidence for a world flood did not exist. The lack of evidence inspired Theologians to propose a regional event to account for the Biblical account.

The referenced referred to in this thread describe natural catastrophic Tigris Euphrates river valley flooding much more recent then the Ice Age glacial floods that are not related to the Biblical account in the time frame and the local and regional events from natural causes.

There is abundant evidence, as cited, that the Biblical account originated in more ancient Babylonian records of legends related to the documented catastrophic floods of the Tigris Euphrates Valley.

There is no other archaeological nor geologic evidence for any other flood events that could be related to the Biblical flood either as a world flood event nor regional flood event.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... there are no inconsistencies in the Epic Of Gilgamesh account, which would imply it was written first ...

The absence of inconsistencies implies no such thing. While narratives can lose fidelity over time, they can also undergo harmonization over time.

 

[Looncall]

Ironically the Biblical narrative is one of the best to actually describe something like a world wide flood. Seems like the attempt to disprove is pedaling backwards. But ok, that's your opinion.

To persist in supporting ancient myths in the face of irrefutable physical evidence that the mythical events did not occur shows a shocking disregard for truth.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ironically the Biblical narrative is one of the best to actually describe something like a world wide flood. Seems like the attempt to disprove is pedaling backwards. But ok, that's your opinion.

Ironically?!?! I do not see how irony applies here. Opinion aside the objective evidence, and the nature of the flood narratives related to Genesis begins with the Epic of Gilgamesh. There is nothing older then the Dead Sea scrolls that document the Hebrew version of Genesis flood and Noah's Arc.

 

[David T]

The Missoula floods are not remotely related in time, place nor cause to the Biblical account of the flood. Why bring it up?



There is no evidence that humanity was ever destroyed in the Biblical time frame. The archaeological evidence indicates it is a part of the history of the beginning and evolution of civilization.



Nothing magical here, Whose we?!?!?! There is no unwavering fantasy about literacy is the magical itself. You need to provide more explanation.



Needs clarification. This is confusing.

stop already treating the bible like it's an modern historical text it's nonsense and since that is emperical nonsense then I would say how we brainwash ourselves in how we approach history in secular drag is nonsense. The bible is impossible to understand apart from nature it is all about nature not magical being existing outside reality of nature cosmos God. They all mean exactly the same thing. Like a single more on a string of a guitar. It really is not that difficult it most certainly is not Pythagoreanism at all. Except maybe the nonsense in Leviticus numbers Deuteronomy which certainly secondary and not primary. I am talking always about perceptions here grounded in nature not books.

 

[shunyadragon]

Lol

Still waiting . . .

 

[Desert Snake]

You havent proven anything besides an inability to understand how myth works.

 

[Desert Snake]

There either was a flood, or there wasn't. The silly semantics games of your random speculation mean nothing.

 

[shunyadragon]

You havent proven anything besides an inability to understand how myth works.

Again there is no proof in any of this. I can and others can only cite the present evidence.

Please enlighten us on your understanding of myth, or how it works.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the Flood did happen as it say in Genesis, then it could not happen any earlier than -

(A) less than 4400 years ago (early Bronze Age, more precisely, in 2340 BCE), according to the Masoretic Text -based bible,
(B) or if you are Orthodox followers relying on the Septuagint than no earlier than 5300 years (to be more precise, 3258 BCE).
​

Out of curiosity: Orthodox what?

 

[shunyadragon]

stop already treating the bible like it's an modern historical text it's nonsense and since that is emperical nonsense then I would say how we brainwash ourselves in how we approach history in secular drag is nonsense. The bible is impossible to understand apart from nature it is all about nature not magical being existing outside reality of nature cosmos God. They all mean exactly the same thing. Like a single more on a string of a guitar. It really is not that difficult it most certainly is not Pythagoreanism at all. Except maybe the nonsense in Leviticus numbers Deuteronomy which certainly secondary and not primary. I am talking always about perceptions here grounded in nature not books.

Please do not ramble, and address the subject of the thread. If you wish to ground the subject here in nature than the geologic and archaeological evidence cited is the best route, and not books like the Bible.

 

[shawn001]

There appears to be some confusion as to the date of the Missoula flood. Some have referred to an ending date of 8200 years ago. I believe the age of the Missoula floods is 13,000 to 15,000 years ago making Missoula Flood less likely that it contributed to the flood legends.

I also question the estimates of the rise in sea level due to the Missoula floods. It is simple volume math. Look at the map of the Missoula flood and lake extent, then look at the vast overwhelming size of the oceans of the world. The simple comparison rejects any such rise in sea level.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_

"During the last deglaciation that followed the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, geologists estimate that a cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted an average of 55 years and that the floods occurred several times over the 2,000-year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Jim O'Connor and Spanish Center of Environmental Studies scientist Gerard Benito have found evidence of at least twenty-five massive floods, the largest discharging ≈10 cubic kilometers per hour (2.7 million m³/s, 13 times the Amazon River).[2] Alternate estimates for the peak flow rate of the largest flood include 17 cubic kilometers per hour[3] and range up to 60 cubic kilometers per hour.[4] The maximum flow speed approached 36 meters/second (130 km/h or 80 mph)."

I am just checking so were clear, but the number I posted "8200 years ago" and the one to three-meter sea level rise across the globe wasn't from the Missoula floods. It was from Lake Agassiz.


"Lake Agassiz was an immense lake that existed in north-central North America during the last ice age. It is named for Louis Agassiz, the first scientist to realize it had been created by glaciers acting as dams. Larger than many modern seas, its waters were fresh, not salt. At its greatest extent it covered an area larger than California (see map right) and held more water than is today contained in all the freshwater lakes of the world combined."

"
This vast body of water drained and refilled, apparently, several times, but emptied finally and completely about 8,000 years ago, when the melting ice of Hudson Bay gave its waters egress. It is estimated that drainage of the lake raised world sea levels by one to three meters. Lakes Manitoba and Winnipeg, are residual catchments, which correspond to regions where the original lake was deepest. Though huge by modern standards, they retain only a small fraction Agassiz's original waters.

Lake Agassiz: Vast prehistoric lake - Online Biology Dictionary


"A much later outburst of Lake Agassiz at the end of the last Ice Age, about 8,000 years ago, is believed to have triggered major climate effects as well as worldwide coastal flooding at that time.


Jim Teller (University of Manitoba) has suggested that rising seas caused by the last Agassiz flood 8,000 years ago may have sent water rushing into the Persian Gulf basin, giving rise to Sumerian and Mesopotamian flood legends and ultimately the biblical story of Noah's Ark.

Google Groups

 

[shawn001]

The absence of inconsistencies implies no such thing. While narratives can lose fidelity over time, they can also undergo harmonization over time.

Understood.

 

[gnostic]

Out of curiosity: Orthodox what?

Sorry, Jayhawker.

Well, I did mention the "Septuagint" so "Orthodox" would mean Greek or Easterner Orthodox. Those churches in Eastern Europe tends to use the Septuagint.

I don't think Orthodox Jews would use the Septuagint bible...unless I wrong about the Jews.

 

[gnostic]

stop already treating the bible like it's an modern historical text it's nonsense and since that is emperical nonsense then I would say how we brainwash ourselves in how we approach history in secular drag is nonsense. The bible is impossible to understand apart from nature it is all about nature not magical being existing outside reality of nature cosmos God. They all mean exactly the same thing. Like a single more on a string of a guitar. It really is not that difficult it most certainly is not Pythagoreanism at all. Except maybe the nonsense in Leviticus numbers Deuteronomy which certainly secondary and not primary. I am talking always about perceptions here grounded in nature not books.

Sorry, David, but the bible never explain HOW anything works in "nature".

The bible is completely incapable and incompetent in explaining any natural phenomena.

In the Book of Job (from 38 to 41), we have the author write about God ranting a list of successive superstitions of God being all-powerful and all-knowing, and did this, this and this, but not once (not ever) explain HOW nature work.

If all this was invented by the author, then that's not a problem, it is merely allegory; therefore, only the author appeared to be uneducated. But if God does exist and he really did say the things he said in Job 38 to 41, then I would say God is bloody blustering uneducated idiot.

For instance, this verse:

10 His sneezings flash lightning,
And his eyes are like the glimmerings of dawn.

This may be good as a simile or metaphor, but it certainly show no understanding what a lightning is, or what causes a lightning to flash. Lightning certainly have nothing to do with "sneezing".

Job 41:10 show no understanding what a lightning, nor explain how it can happen. In fact, the author or God understand why people sneeze.

And it is the same for every verses in those 4 chapters. Not once did ever explain anything.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am just checking so were clear, but the number I posted "8200 years ago" and the one to three-meter sea level rise across the globe wasn't from the Missoula floods. It was from Lake Agassiz.


"Lake Agassiz was an immense lake that existed in north-central North America during the last ice age. It is named for Louis Agassiz, the first scientist to realize it had been created by glaciers acting as dams. Larger than many modern seas, its waters were fresh, not salt. At its greatest extent it covered an area larger than California (see map right) and held more water than is today contained in all the freshwater lakes of the world combined."

"
This vast body of water drained and refilled, apparently, several times, but emptied finally and completely about 8,000 years ago, when the melting ice of Hudson Bay gave its waters egress. It is estimated that drainage of the lake raised world sea levels by one to three meters. Lakes Manitoba and Winnipeg, are residual catchments, which correspond to regions where the original lake was deepest. Though huge by modern standards, they retain only a small fraction Agassiz's original waters.

Lake Agassiz: Vast prehistoric lake - Online Biology Dictionary


"A much later outburst of Lake Agassiz at the end of the last Ice Age, about 8,000 years ago, is believed to have triggered major climate effects as well as worldwide coastal flooding at that time.


Jim Teller (University of Manitoba) has suggested that rising seas caused by the last Agassiz flood 8,000 years ago may have sent water rushing into the Persian Gulf basin, giving rise to Sumerian and Mesopotamian flood legends and ultimately the biblical story of Noah's Ark.

Google Groups

OK, sorry for the miscommunication. The estimated rise in sea level was 0.8 to 2,2 meters. Based on my knowledge of the records cited I would be inclined to contribute the rise more broadly to the glacial melt at the time, and not only attributed to the final emptying of the lake..

I do not believe the event was sudden enough to be attributed to the legend of the flood. It is not reasonable that the rise was that sudden world wide. The rise would be fairly sudden around North America, but would dissipate as it spread to the rest of the world. It may be as little as 0.8 meter.

 

[shawn001]

OK, sorry for the miscommunication. The estimated rise in sea level was 0.8 to 2,2 meters. Based on my knowledge of the records cited I would be inclined to contribute the rise more broadly to the glacial melt at the time, and not only attributed to the final emptying of the lake..

I do not believe the event was sudden enough to be attributed to the legend of the flood. It is not reasonable that the rise was that sudden world wide. The rise would be fairly sudden around North America, but would dissipate as it spread to the rest of the world. It may be as little as 0.8 meter.

It was sudden because it was an outburst flood and made England an Island and helped form the Black Sea. There were people living in England at the time. The final emptying was a LOT of fresh water. It contained 1 1/2 times the water of the five great lakes combined. Trillions of gallons of water rushed out at once. It's believed to have altered the Atlantic current and created a mini ice age for 1400 years. The largest flood known on earth and it reshaped the map of the world.

"Bouldnor Cliff is now completely submerged below a shipping lane just off the Isle of Wight. DigVentures will be tracking the progress of Garry Momber and his team of underwater archaeologists as they dig below the waves this summer.

"Wind the clock back 8,000 years to the Mesolithic and you’ll discover a time, long before Stonehenge had even been thought of, when Britain was still connected to mainland Europe and families lived on land that is now below the English Channel."

This 8000 Year Old Underwater Village Was Discovered By A Lobster


Start this video at 26 minutes in.

Which might also explain Robert Ballard's work on the Black sea.

New Evidence Suggests Biblical Great Flood Happened

 

[james bond]

There appears to be some confusion as to the date of the Missoula flood. Some have referred to an ending date of 8200 years ago. I believe the age of the Missoula floods is 13,000 to 15,000 years ago making Missoula Flood less likely that it contributed to the flood legends.

I also question the estimates of the rise in sea level due to the Missoula floods. It is simple volume math. Look at the map of the Missoula flood and lake extent, then look at the vast overwhelming size of the oceans of the world. The simple comparison rejects any such rise in sea level.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_

"During the last deglaciation that followed the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, geologists estimate that a cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted an average of 55 years and that the floods occurred several times over the 2,000-year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Jim O'Connor and Spanish Center of Environmental Studies scientist Gerard Benito have found evidence of at least twenty-five massive floods, the largest discharging ≈10 cubic kilometers per hour (2.7 million m³/s, 13 times the Amazon River).[2] Alternate estimates for the peak flow rate of the largest flood include 17 cubic kilometers per hour[3] and range up to 60 cubic kilometers per hour.[4] The maximum flow speed approached 36 meters/second (130 km/h or 80 mph)."

LOL. Basing it on a biased liberal atheist encyclopedia and bad link. Your argument is broken.

This is really about catastrophism instead of slow millions and billions of years boring uniformitarianism.

Creation scientists have established:

1. Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over continents.
2. Rapid burial of plants and animals.
3. Sediment transported from long distances.
4. Clearly marked strata with no erosion in-between as would be with time.
5. Strata is bent without rocks and hard layers breaking due to stress over time.

 

[james bond]

Those old sandals are from some of the first humans entering the Americas.


World's Oldest Shoes

A University of Oregon Professor, Luthor Cressman discovered the oldest known shoes in the world. The sandals were found in 1938 in a desert cave in Eastern Oregon. They were made of sagebrush bark and had been covered by volcanic ash from the eruption of Mount Mazama more than 7,500 years ago.

Again, just one example of many.

I have to ask syncretic and James Bond, do they have evidence it's rained in the Antartic "Dry Valleys" in the last million years?

You, of course, ignored this question.

"We built Noah's Ark and the Creation Museum and it provides the answers people have."

So in your own words, it's okay to lie to people, although what you said doesn't even make sense.

When you can get that "Noah's Ark at the Creation Museum" insured by Loyd's of London, as floatable let me know.

A problem is we can point out dry spots everywhere on Earth for over 10,000 years.

Too many straw men and weak sauce here. Not wasting my time chasing straw men. You're the one lying.

It's not millions of years, but thousands of years.

Again, the Noah's Ark and Creation Museum are living evidence of a global flood. They provide the answers about the flood. They have become a premier destination for world travelers. Nobody went to go see atheist scientists' Lucy, the incomplete remains of a chimpanzee. That was a huge money loser and the fossils will not leave Ethiopia again. What's the point having an exhibit nobody wants to see? The Creation Museum even has an exhibit for Lucy ha ha. And nobody wants to see old sandals. This is where atheist science arguments get creepy and boring.

https://creationmuseum.org/creation-science/lucy/

Seattle shows little love for Lucy fossil exhibit
Seattle shows little love for Lucy fossil exhibit

 

[shunyadragon]

LOL. Basing it on a biased liberal atheist encyclopedia and bad link. Your argument is broken.

This is really about catastrophism instead of slow millions and billions of years boring uniformitarianism.

Creation scientists have established:

1. Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over continents.
2. Rapid burial of plants and animals.
3. Sediment transported from long distances.
4. Clearly marked strata with no erosion in-between as would be with time.
5. Strata is bent without rocks and hard layers breaking due to stress over time.

All unfortunately dishonest representation of facts and science and not true. Yes, in your world view Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.