No Religion - Nearly 10 Million Australians.

[TransmutingSoul]

The "we" was more "the human race". As in, any time someone is found to be doing surveys on religious affiliations in recent memory, the results have all skewed toward either "no religion" or "spiritual but not religious". That's what I was saying. If you have a recent study that has numbers going in some other direction, please, by all means, present it.

Religions also go through cycles , like the seasons of spring, summer, autum winter. So a trend down is just showing us that faith has cones into a winter.

Those that were weak dropped off in autum, many have succumbed to the winter, but spring is on the way.

The world is just at the end of a long dark winter, spring is around the corner.

The trends you show are predictable, they are written into religious scriptures. The trend does not mean the winter will win the day, as God also gives us the renewal of the spring season.

Humanity will soon face the final storm of this seasons winter and after that storm we will have a powerful growth filled spring and that is already written. Maybe a few other gales to blow before that storm?

Regards Tony

 

[Bathos Logos]

Religions also go through cycles , like the seasons of spring, summer, autum winter. So a trend down is just showing us that faith has cones into a winter.

@firedragon asked me for evidence, so I provided evidence of the current decline. You don't have evidence of the current increase - mostly because there isn't one. And your opinions that "faith has [come] into a winter is only that, opinion. Just like my opinion on why the decline is happening, or that it will likely continue is just that - opinion. There is nothing more to it. The decline is happening, like it or not, and I don't know for sure that it will continue to decline as steadily as it has been. I readily admitted that my part (outside the data that indicates the decline is happening, like it or not) was only opinion. Can you do the same with your opinion here, I wonder?

Those that were weak dropped off in autum, many have succumbed to the winter, but spring is on the way.

The "weak"? Seriously?

The world is just at the end of a long dark winter, spring is around the corner.

Again, opinion. As @firedragon pointed out, you literally cannot know the future here.

The trends you show are predictable, they are written into religious scriptures.

This simply does not matter.

The trend does not mean the winter will win the day, as God also gives us the renewal of the spring season.

You do understand that the "winter" of belief could be taken as the "spring" of unbelief, right? Yours isn't the only viewpoint in the world. You definitely seem to think it is. I know you wouldn't admit to that, obviously... but you post as if you are correct, no matter what you say. This simply is not true. Try a little humility some time, perhaps? Just a thought.

Humanity will soon face the final storm of this seasons winter and after that storm we will have a powerful growth filled spring and that is already written. Maybe a few other gales to blow before that storm?

This is just the blowing of windbags. All you have going for your is what other people have told you on this. Are you so sure they were correct? Did they really know the future? How many have claimed to have that knowledge, and how many times has it panned out so far? Your odds aren't looking good.

 

[firedragon]

The "we" was more "the human race". As in, any time someone is found to be doing surveys on religious affiliations in recent memory, the results have all skewed toward either "no religion" or "spiritual but not religious". That's what I was saying. If you have a recent study that has numbers going in some other direction, please, by all means, present it.

There are plenty of articles I could link to easily. But I think the most telling piece is this site:

WVS Database

This site literally allows you to select the countries you want to see, and filter to exact questions that were asked in the survey, look at it by year in time spreads, etc. For example, since I believe you to be an adherent of Islam (please do correct me if I am wrong), I went in and selected a time series display on the data obtained over several years for the question: "Please indicate how important these items are in your life: Religion". Here are the results of the survey from Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, and Egypt:

Now, because I am a completely honest person, and want this to be entirely transparent, you can note that Pakistan, in particular, gained over the period of 1994 to present - gaining from 80% to 90% and apparently holding steady. Jordan fell only slightly during the time, and is possibly on an upward curve now, Egypt is pretty much steady, and Iran and Iraq show a continuous level of decline.

So, not much to see here, and I wouldn't have expected too much anyway, to be honest. I mean, searching up the "major religion of Pakistan" for example yields this:
So... no surprises there.

But then, looking at a smattering of other countries from around the world (I basically did a random grab of countries I thought it would be interesting to see the data on), we have this:

In that series, I think only Germany gained anything substantial over the displayed period. France was also pretty steady, though if you look at top 2 box, instead of just a glance at top box, there is some decline and a very slight bounce back there. But mostly it is decline across the board.

You should play with the site, and see what you can come up with.

At any rate, there have been so very many articles on this topic of worldwide religious decline, and any number of threads on various sties posting articles that reference studies, that I would have thought this sort of thing to be common knowledge on these types of boards by now. To the point that you asking for "evidence" seemed kind of funny. The numbers show decline. Therefore they (currently) favor my opinion over an opinion that would cite a worldwide shift toward more religious people and adherence based on what could only be found to be very myopic incomplete research or evidence. Like if you wanted to limit your research to Pakistan, Germany, France, Egypt and Jordan from the above selection of countries.

Just go to the site and do a random selection of countries on your own and see what you get. If the results end up showing that religion is increasing substantially I'd be interested to see what you've got.

Time period is too small. Already discussed that with you but I don't think you like it. But take a look how atheism increased hugely in the 20th century and then declined.

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon asked me for evidence, so I provided evidence of the current decline. You don't have evidence of the current increase

Don't be so Hasty. These numbers don't mean its a perpetual increase. Fads happen all the time in the world. It's not enough historical data. Try to take a bigger picture.

As I said multiple times atheism increased a lot in the 20th century. And declined in the 1970's. Your thesis that information makes atheism more susceptible is not proven because since the 70's technology has seriously made a huge turn but atheism declined. So that's the antithesis of your whole point. You want evidence for that? Here you go.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Time period is too small. Already discussed that with you but I don't think you like it. But take a look how atheism increased hugely in the 20th century and then declined.

View attachment 64160

No internet in 1970. That was the whole point behind my opinion that the current downward trend may be more of a permanent one. The ease of access to information and knowledge at an unprecedented scale. I have the numbers showing decline over the period that the internet has existed, and I am opining (again, admittedly opinion - do you understand this?) that the current trend will continue. This is an opinion I hold not only based on the current trends in the data, but also on my witnessing of how theists conduct themselves in conversations where their beliefs are being put to scrutiny. More and more these discussions are being had, and from all that I have seen, the conversation ends with entirely insufficient answers (nigh excuse-making) given by the theists for the reasons they believe this or that. Conversations that many times end with the theists simply neglecting to reply in the end, once the questioning becomes too difficult. Is this anecdotal? Yes! Does it inform my opinion due to the great number of such encounters I have had throughout my life that didn't end in any other ways? Absolutely!

That you don't like my opinion doesn't make it any less my opinion. Time will ultimately tell, and I admit I don't know the future, obviously! But what I have stated is where I feel things are headed, based on my experience and the evidence at hand in the present. More and more people gain access to the internet very likely every day. The width and breadth of argumentation for the proposition of any "God" and questions that raise doubts as to the validity of those arguments are getting into the hands of more and more people every day as well.

I am of the opinion that the information that casts doubt is so much stronger and so much more cogent that it blows all theistic ideas out of the water, and my opinion is that it should for anyone being honest with themselves, and honest with respect to the reality they experience. Again... all my opinion. Are you here to tell me I am not allowed my opinion? Or that I can't share my opinion without providing evidence of how my opinion is valid? You can ask me for evidence all day long, and I can just reply that it is "opinion" and that I readily admit as much, and that the only evidence I have is what I have already laid out. This is very different from when a theist posits "God" as a reality that everyone should accept and then is asked for evidence. If they were willing to say "it is just my opinion that God exists, I don't know for sure" then who do you think would hound them for evidence? But is that what any assured theist says? Maybe a couple of them. Maybe. But none I have run into.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Don't be so Hasty. These numbers don't mean its a perpetual increase. Fads happen all the time in the world. It's not enough historical data. Try to take a bigger picture.

As I said multiple times atheism increased a lot in the 20th century. And declined in the 1970's. Your thesis that information makes atheism more susceptible is not proven because since the 70's technology has seriously made a huge turn but atheism declined. So that's the antithesis of your whole point. You want evidence for that? Here you go.

View attachment 64161

Did I say atheism, specifically, was on the rise? I don't remember saying this. Interesting. I just can't find myself caring about your latest post of data. It is irrelevant to the point I was making. Religion's importance on the decline currently. That's the point. Try to keep it in focus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, opinion. As @firedragon pointed out, you literally cannot know the future here.

I can not get into these types of arguments, I would rather stay more silent. I will offer more to consider.

We can indeed get a glimpse of the future. There is no doubt humanity will find a Most Great Peace.

A good example is that a lot of Science Fiction ends up becoming seen in reality. The issue we face, is determining and knowing what is of God and what is of our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

No internet in 1970.

Yeah. But there was in the year 2000.

Are you here to tell me I am not allowed my opinion?

No.

Did I say atheism, specifically, was on the rise?

Okay. So you don't speak for atheism.

Great.

Cheers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And your opinions that "faith has [come] into a winter is only that, opinion

This is not the case, this is God given teachings, such as this;

"God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations." – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 33.

Many such passages are found in the religious scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[idea]

How is that going to work for the next generations?

How does that work if you live in Ukraine?

Regards Tony

Being present and connected to all - this brings me peace. Please read following link on suffering:
Thay’s Poetry / Please Call Me by My True Names (song & poem) | Plum Village

Understanding viewpoints and backgrounds, really listening to others, talking, this leads to peace.

Prayers, preaching, dogmatic - seems to make things worse.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The answer is simple. The world needs the Message of Baha’u’llah.

That Message is the answer.

Regards Tony

Okay, so you're not saying we need faith in order to help humanity, but rather we need to have faith in your particular brand of religion.

Unfortunately, as I've noted, faith is not a reliable path to truth. Too bad your religion doesn't have any verifiable evidence that supports its validity, because then faith wouldn't be required.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, so you're not saying we need faith in order to help humanity, but rather we need to have faith in your particular brand of religion.

Unfortunately, as I've noted, faith is not a reliable path to truth. Too bad your religion doesn't have any verifiable evidence that supports its validity, because then faith wouldn't be required.

No I have not said that, they are your thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[QuestioningMind]

No I have not said that, they are your thoughts.

Regards Tony

The answer is simple. The world needs the Message of Baha’u’llah.

That Message is the answer.

Isn't the above your thoughts? That's what you wrote in response to me asking how having faith will help humanity. What are you suggesting I have faith in, if not your religious beliefs?

 

[Bathos Logos]

Okay. So you don't speak for atheism.

Absolutely correct. Not sure when I implied or stated that I did.

 

[Bathos Logos]

This is not the case, this is God given teachings, such as this;

"God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations." – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 33.

Many such passages are found in the religious scriptures.

Regards Tony

Okay, so if this is teaching "directly from God" then why is God speaking/writing in the third person here? As in - why is it not "I leave not My children comfortless..."? Why isn't it written like that? Oh... that's right, it is because it was written by men. Human beings.

And in this passage you have quoted, does it literally state that the "darkness of winter" is? Aren't we left to interpret this in its entirety? The only hint we have as to what this "winter" is is in the coming of the "spring" coinciding with the arrival of "messengers" and "prophets". This is pretty weak in terms of prediction - as in, zero specifics.

In the end, this doesn't mean much of anything. Historically, every so often there have been charismatic people who capture the "hearts and minds" of some gullible types who are wont for some kind of transcendent direction. It's a sad, sad pattern within human goings-on, and here you treat it like some "blessed" venture. It is a downright terrible propensity and has had mildly bad to dire consequences for all sorts of people - probably as many as you could claim have been helped, honestly. From young, underage girls being married off to old men against their will in Utah, to people being swindled out of their life savings by evangelicals, to people drinking literal poison Kool-aid, to people committing suicide very possibly as a result of teachings by "Teal Swan" that deep investigation of death is some pre-requisite to finding healing of some form. The point being - these are the types of people you are talking about when you hail your "messengers" and "prophets". That their outcomes or the consequences of people following these bozos turned out negative does not mean that these aren't exactly the same types of situations you are talking about. When people venerate and hold other human beings up on a pedestal, bad things can happen. Perhaps every so often some good things happen too, but good things are also happening without all this hullabaloo. Don't give these people this "power". Don't give them all this adoration and time investment. They are just people, and this kind of thing is bound to go to the heads of most.

 

[firedragon]

Absolutely correct. Not sure when I implied or stated that I did.

Mate. I just reiterated what you said. .

Anyway, your thesis was invalid. YOur data is not enough to make a decent statistical prediction. YOur idea that there was no technology in 1972 was just a random comment that made no sense. YOur whole thesis that with technology and information dissemination religion is declining is not correct and I have shown you the data spanning two centuries.

Have a great day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, so if this is teaching "directly from God" then why is God speaking/writing in the third person here? As in - why is it not "I leave not My children comfortless..."? Why isn't it written like that? Oh... that's right, it is because it was written by men. Human beings.

Do you really want to know? There is also a lot given on this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point being - these are the types of people you are talking about when you hail your "messengers" and "prophets".

No they are not. A Messenger of God is proven by the fruits of the Spirit, which are the virtues.

This answered the previous question I asked. So we can leave it there.

Regards Tony

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Interesting research. Although "No Religion" does not mean "Atheists" by default it could be. Must read more on the study.

If you can, give me a source to read the full study. If not just ignore this post. Maybe this is a paid view so I might not get full access.

Thanks Tony. Good study IMO.

Hey @firedragon
You might have already got an answer on that question, but I can summarise for you.

Every 4 years or so, we do a census. Each household has to respond to a series of questions. Where children are involved, there are still questions to answer. If someone is staying over at your house that night, they would respond on your census rather than their own.

So it's basically a giant survey.

In typical Australian fashion, a few years back lots of people listed their religion as 'Jedi', since there was an urban myth that it would be recognised as a 'real' religion if 50k people listed it. Don't ask me what a 'real' religion is.

But in response to your point, no religion just means 'no religion'. You could absolutely be an atheist and put that, but you could be an agnostic, or spiritual, etc in many different ways.

It's really a measure of adherence to religion...but people being people, they keep tying it to a measure of belief.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Mate. I just reiterated what you said. .

Anyway, your thesis was invalid. YOur data is not enough to make a decent statistical prediction. YOur idea that there was no technology in 1972 was just a random comment that made no sense. YOur whole thesis that with technology and information dissemination religion is declining is not correct and I have shown you the data spanning two centuries.

Have a great day.

Once again, I feel the need to tell you - not a "thesis" of any stripe. An opinion. An opinion based on the current trend and my thoughts on why it is occurring. Why you keep trying to push me into making some kind of future prediction is something I can't understand. The only thing I can think of is that you are too used to (your own?) methods of theistic presentation of claims that sees people stating anything end everything as if it were fact, without regard to how much evidential justification they actually have. Perhaps you expect that I am to be found doing the same, because you don't understand any other way of doing things. Feel free to tell me the actual reason if I am not anywhere near being on the nose here.

Also, the "have a great day" at the end seems like a way to try and dismiss me, or end the conversation. Would you like me to abstain from posting replies to you or questioning you further on these topics? If you are feeling uncomfortable, I would be happy to extend that courtesy to you.