No Possibility of God

[Nakosis]

Emmanuel Kant said "My awe and wonder is the starry Heaven above me and the moral law within me:" St Thomas Aquinas said, "We know of God through His created universe". God manifests Himself through in many ways. Atheists depend on what is directly observable and measured. This surely does not apply to an Omnipresent God who is timeless. He is not a person of whom one can take a picture. Yet, to understand His nature, we need to look at how He presents Himself - through His prophets and mostly through Christ. Outside those, we would be speculating and guessing. In my opinion, God wants us to know Him and it is up to us to open our hearts to Him. We should always try to come to Him. However, we would need to be open-minded and willing to accept Him. We will all find out someday. In spite of all of the evidence, unfortunately, some are willing to take a chance.

Men can create their own Gods to believe in and worship. Do all Gods which people believe in exist? People have different ideas about Christ. Are all of these ideas correct? You believe one thing about Christ, I believe another. Can we both be right?

 

[MonkeyFire]

You couldn't see all the way into a true eternal past and future but it can be believed.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Men can create their own Gods to believe in and worship. Do all Gods which people believe in exist? People have different ideas about Christ. Are all of these ideas correct? You believe one thing about Christ, I believe another. Can we both be right?

Some religious truths are a matter of faith but some can also be known by reason (starting with directly observable things)...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Einstein Wrote very eloquently: "I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?"

He did? Where and when did he write this?

A quick Google search comes up with lots of Christians attributing this quote to him, but I can't find an original source.

OTOH, I can tell you exactly when he wrote the quote below: January 3, 1954 in a letter to Eric Gutkind, in response to Gutkind's book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt."

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

And I can tell you exactly when he wrote this next quote: March 24, 1954 in a letter to Joseph Dispentiere. Dispentiere was an atheist who had written to Einstein in disappointment after reading an article that claimed Einstein was religious:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I would suggest getting over the fact there is no god, it is a man made idea.

There is so much evidence God exists. It is definitely a man made idea that there is no God.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Men can create their own Gods to believe in and worship. Do all Gods which people believe in exist? People have different ideas about Christ. Are all of these ideas correct? You believe one thing about Christ, I believe another. Can we both be right?

You make some good points. Not all Gods are real. When people have conflicting views they can't both be right. But that doesn't mean there isn't a God. That is why it's so important to see what the scriptures really say.

 

[ratiocinator]

There is so much evidence God exists.

Which god and where is this evidence of which you speak?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Which god and where is this evidence of which you speak?

The God of the Bible. And the evidence is the creation and the fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures.

 

[ratiocinator]

The God of the Bible.

Given all the different denominations, cults, and sects that all claim to believe in (often very different versions of) "the God of the bible", you'll have to narrow it down a bit more.

And the evidence is the creation and the fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures.

The "creation" is begging the question (assuming your conclusion), and the "fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures" have always proved rather comically contrived or self-referential.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Given all the different denominations, cults, and sects that all claim to believe in (often very different versions of) "the God of the bible", you'll have to narrow it down a bit more.



The "creation" is begging the question (assuming your conclusion), and the "fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures" have always proved rather comically contrived or self-referential.

Can't you see from the creation that there has to be a higher power that created things? Look at all the order there is in the seasons. Night and day.

How could we have the hearing ear, and the seeing eye, and a sense of taste, etc. Why do we have so many types of food that taste so good? Can that just be happen-stance?

How could a big bang from something the size of a pinhead develop into large planets and a universe? and into gold, and copper, and diamonds, and trees, and animals, and so many other things? And there are so many different lifeforms? (thousands of different birds, fish, etc.)

 

[ratiocinator]

Can't you see from the creation that there has to be a higher power that created things?

No. Where would such a "higher power" have come from? If you look at the universe and think that its existence is mysterious, then how does positing some, at least equally mysterious and unexplained, being that created it make things any less mysterious? We still a bunch of stuff that exists (either some god that decides to create a universe or just a universe) for no known reason.

It's not an explanation (except in some just-so story kind of way) and it doesn't reduce the mystery of existence by a jot.

Look at all the order there is in the seasons. Night and day.

How could we have the hearing ear, and the seeing eye, and a sense of taste, etc. Why do we have so many types of food that taste so good? Can that just be happen-stance?

How could a big bang from something the size of a pinhead develop into large planets and a universe? and into gold, and copper, and diamonds, and trees, and animals, and so many other things? And there are so many different lifeforms? (thousands of different birds, fish, etc.)

All of this is pretty well understood but even if it wasn't, that isn't an argument for a creator as I've explained above.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No. Where would such a "higher power" have come from? If you look at the universe and think that its existence is mysterious, then how does positing some, at least equally mysterious and unexplained, being that created it make things any less mysterious? We still a bunch of stuff that exists (either some god that decides to create a universe or just a universe) for no known reason.

It's not an explanation (except in some just-so story kind of way) and it doesn't reduce the mystery of existence by a jot.



All of this is pretty well understood but even if it wasn't, that isn't an argument for a creator as I've explained above.

Totally disagree with you. God has always existed. Maybe I should have said - Why do we have things like the seeing eye, and good tasting foods?

Give me some reasonable answer as to why we have all these things. What is some reasonable explanation as to why these things would just randomly develop from an explosion. (aka the big bang)
How and why would we have gold, and silver, etc.?

 

[ratiocinator]

God has always existed.

So what? Maybe the universe has always existed. Why do you think a god just happing to exist, for no known reason, is and less mysterious than a universe just happing to exist, for no known reason?

Maybe I should have said - Why do we have things like the seeing eye, and good tasting foods?

Give me some reasonable answer as to why we have all these things. What is some reasonable explanation as to why these things would just randomly develop from an explosion. (aka the big bang)
How and why would we have gold, and silver, etc.?

What difference does it make? Why would my lack of an answer make your favourite deity any more than (at best) a blind guess? What are the actual reasons that you think it exists? If all you have is unanswered questions, then I'm afraid an unknown does not make your guesses any more likely.

In any case, if you mean why in the "how come" sense, then look to science, if you mean "for what purpose", then why you think there needs to be one?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So what? Maybe the universe has always existed. Why do you think a god just happing to exist, for no known reason, is and less mysterious than a universe just happing to exist, for no known reason?



What difference does it make? Why would my lack of an answer make your favourite deity any more than (at best) a blind guess? What are the actual reasons that you think it exists? If all you have is unanswered questions, then I'm afraid an unknown does not make your guesses any more likely.

In any case, if you mean why in the "how come" sense, then look to science, if you mean "for what purpose", then why you think there needs to be one?

I believe God exists because of personal experiences, fulfilled prophecy from the scriptures, and because of the created things in this world.

I'll share one of many personal experiences. I had something bothering me really badly years ago. I was alone in the house, so I know no one heard me, and I never told anyone. I got down to pray, and really cried out to God about what was bothering me. I went to church and I happened to have usher duty that service. But after the songs were over, and the preacher was going up to start preaching, I stepped inside the doors of the auditorium to listen for a bit. He said - "I don't know why I am saying this. It doesn't have anything to do with the lesson today. I just felt to." And he gave the answers to what I had been crying out to God about. (No one can rob me of that experience.)

I have also been healed after being prayed for. Doctors had been unable to help me. I can't speak for others, but I know my healing was real.

All the wonderful things in the world, can't just be from coincidence or from an explosion. That just doesn't make any sense.

You asked about the God I believe in. I don't believe in a trinity - that makes no sense. I only believe in One God (an eternal Spirit) who wrapped himself in a fleshly body, and shed his blood for the sins of mankind.

 

[Tokita]

There is so much evidence God exists. It is definitely a man made idea that there is no God.

In fact the opposite. There is more evidence that God exists than not. Science cannot explain everything because it is built on measured and observable data. God's work cannot be measured, but it is observable. To see God's work, one must have an open mind to accepting His unlimited and omnipotent existence. There are people who purposely choose not to do so.
Psalm 115:6 " They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but cannot smell."
Jeremiah 5:21 "Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear"
Matthew 13:15-17
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

In fact the opposite. There is more evidence that God exists than not. Science cannot explain everything because it is built on measured and observable data. God's work cannot be measured, but it is observable. To see God's work, one must have an open mind to accepting His unlimited and omnipotent existence. There are people who purposely choose not to do so.
Psalm 115:6 " They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but cannot smell."
Jeremiah 5:21 "Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear"
Matthew 13:15-17
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

How is this opposite? It sounds like you are in agreement with me?

 

[ratiocinator]

There is more evidence that God exists than not.

Where?

God's work cannot be measured, but it is observable.

How?

 

[Tokita]

Where?



How?

One can admit that science cannot explain everything. Just look around and try to explain the order in the universe and explain it as a sheer coincident or just creation of nature. Look at the complexity of the human body alone and see the awesome engineering behind it. I will repeat what I said in the earliest post, "if nothing is something, what is nothing? and if our universe is imperfect, can an imperfect create perfection? Look at the perfection of our universe and the order within it.

 

[Tokita]

How is this opposite? It sounds like you are in agreement with me?

We are.

 

[ratiocinator]

One can admit that science cannot explain everything.

Of course, but something that is unexplained doesn't, in and of itself, make a god any more believable.

Just look around and try to explain the order in the universe and explain it as a sheer coincident or just creation of nature.

There are good scientific explanations for how the universe got to be the way it is, given what we know about its history.

Look at the complexity of the human body alone and see the awesome engineering behind it.

Evolution explains this, and there are examples of terrible "engineering" involved, if it actually was designed.

I will repeat what I said in the earliest post, "if nothing is something, what is nothing?

No idea what you're trying to ask.

and if our universe is imperfect, can an imperfect create perfection?

How do you define "perfect", how do yoy apply that to the universe?

Look at the perfection of our universe and the order within it.

Again, what perfection and how is it defined?

You're also trying to explain "perfection" and "order" in what exists by adding more of it (in the form of a god). That's a blind guess and a step in the wrong direction. Why is a god that just happens to exist, for no known reason, that then creates a universe, be any less mysterious and unexplained, than just a universe that exists for no known reason?