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Featured No Possibility of God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, May 15, 2020.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Hawking wrote. "For me this means that there is no possibility of a creator, because there is no time for a creator to have existed in."
    Stephen Hawking's Final Book Says There's 'No Possibility' of God in Our Universe | Live Science

    So time didn't exist before the Big Bang?
    There seems a lot of certainty that prior to the BB time did not exist at least by people certainly smarter than me.

    Has science finally provided an answer to the age-old question of God's existence?
    Is Hawking wrong about time?
    Or, is there some workaround which allows God to exist/create in a timeless state?

    In fact, according to Hawking, nothing existed prior to the Big Bang and it is perfectly ok to accept that.
     
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  2. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Nobody real knows for sure what if anything might've existed prior to eternal inflation. Right?
     
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  3. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    I love Hawking, but this was a stupid and overly simplistic assertion IMO.
     
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  4. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I don't know about Hawking but in Advaita philosophy 'time' is part of Maya (illusion universe). Brahman/God is timeless in Advaita philosophy.
     
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  5. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    There are scientists that don't believe time exists, There are scientists that believe time moves in only one direction forward. There are scientists that believe you can travel back in time. Time is still not a certainty.
     
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  6. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    On what basis do you say that?
     
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  7. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Gravity would never allow a big bang to happen. It didn't happen.

    If all matter in the universe came from one rapid expansion then all the matter in the universe would be found in an expanding sphere with an empty area at the center. That's not what we see. Galaxies are fairly evenly distributed across the universe.

    And, the increasing speed of the spread of galaxies does not fit with the idea of a big bang.

    Also, this idea of the universe being 13.8 billion light years old is entirely based upon the fact that we can only see 13.8 billion light years with our current telescopes. The James Webb space telescope is going to throw that number out the window. I hope Stephen makes it that long to see it. EDIT: Oh, I guess he's dead already. Darn it.

    Thanks for playing Mr. Hawking, next time stick to what you know.
     
    #7 Super Universe, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  8. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Well, for one thing, he was basically asserting that there was a time when time didn't exist. Or it seems that way to me, which seems fallacious. But even if that's true, who says a god would have to be constrained by time? Most monotheists believe God exists outside of space and time and created space and time. But either way, it's an unfounded assertion IMO. We don't even know if the universe had a beginning. It's the scientific consensus, but many smart people (Bertrand Russell to name one) questioned whether the universe actually had a beginning. I'm not a cosmology expert by any means, but the big bang theory seems to be based on extrapolation, which may or may not be accurate. I think the Big Bang Theory is likely correct, but I wouldn't state it as a certainty.
     
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  9. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein All Power to the People!
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    Most theologies hold that deities are transcendent of the physical universe, including time. To be honest, I think that scientists in the physical sciences shouldn't make such statements as religion is a very abstract, philosophical field and is foreign to the way of thinking in physical sciences, so they often don't know what they're talking about with it. At least his statements on religion aren't as embarrassing as Dawkins, though.
     
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  10. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Just how are Dawkins' statements on religion embarrassing, exactly?
     
  11. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    I mean, let's say a person here presented the argument that Hawkings did.

    OP: There is no time for a Creator to have existed in.

    The arguers: Straw Man. We think God exists outside time.

    Argument over.
     
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  12. Shaykhahadun

    Shaykhahadun New Member

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    Time is part of "creation/the universe". Time is not part of God, God is eternal (outside time and it's creation).
    Anything that is part of time/space is categorically Creation and not God. It's very elementary epistemology (and clearly ontology as well), I don't know how someone could screw it up that much :sob:
     
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  13. Hellbound Serpiente

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    Why does creator of time need to exist in it? Why the property of this material world should exist in spiritual/Godly realm? Do our dreams follow the laws and logic of the world we live in? Why can't the spiritual/Godly world be like our dream world where the laws and logic of this world are absent?

    And there is always a possibility, it is probability of a creator that should seem nigh-impossible if you are an atheist.
     
    #13 Hellbound Serpiente, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein All Power to the People!
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    They're just simplistic and mostly addressing dumb fundie interpretations and not even considering more nuanced views. He is no theologian. People need to stay in their lane when it comes to their studies. True polymaths are very rare.
     
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  15. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes he is simplistic with regard to religion, but remember there are a lot of people who actually believe in the "dumb fundie interpretations." So I don't think it's a bad thing that he addresses these. I enjoy his religious debates and videos, but he is more interesting as an evolutionary biology writer for sure.
     
  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein All Power to the People!
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    The problem is that he uses that to represent and bash religion in general. Either way, he has helped to lower the public discourse on religion as least as much as any televangelist.
     
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  17. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Okay, but tell me what it means to say that "God exists outside space and time and created space and time." The problem, you see, is that to get from a God who exists without space and time to one in which there is space and time involves, rather necessarily, a tick in time.

    Even more problematic, at least to me, is that with no time passing, how does God change from one that didn't want or have a universe to one that did, and accomplished it. You see, change actually does require time, and cannot happen without it.
     
  18. Hellbound Serpiente

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    Perhaps everything happens all at once in Godly realm? Like, all the events occur as compound events at the same time without an interval between them? Perhaps because there is no change at all because everything happens at simultaneously in form of fused events?
     
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  19. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    And how does raising such arguments as "perhaps this, perhaps that" do anything to help solve a conundrum? What's wrong, for example, with "perhaps the Great Pumpkin" or "perhaps fairies" or "chocolate pudding?" The list of "perhaps" situations is infinite, by the way.
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    There is no time to God. Everything is present tense. He is at the beginning and the end of the river at once. He's the first and the last. If you look at creation as a writing then God is the first and last letter.

    The only time to God is when God works His work. So He shines His own light and it's called "day". (Genesis 1:3-5) And what is the light of God? It's the knowledge of God and so He made all things in the Light of God which were six periods of shining called days(all things are made in the light of God) and the last day He rested. Which is a day that hasn't arrived for us yet; but God is already there. But God is not resting yet(in our time line) because He works always.

    A day to God is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Because the time of God and the time we go by are not analogous.

    By the way time travel is possible and being done. But they can't change very much. It's under God's control and so their efforts are futile. Because God has already seen what they could do. Like a salmon jumping up stream. Yes it can jump up stream, but if God has seen also that then what new thing did they really do? What have they accomplished? So all things work by God's plan and timing.
     
    #20 74x12, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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