+++ No Piercing At Jesus' Side +++

[doppelganger]

well if i remember rightly Herod gives the order not Pilot it still has Romans actually doing the crucifiction

No, Herod orders Jesus be given over to "the people" which, as you read on, means the Jewish people, who carry out the crucifixion after "their" feast of unleavened bread.

But of the Jews none washed his hands, neither Herod nor one of his judges. And since they did not desire to wash, Pilate stood up. [2] And then Herod the king orders the Lord to be taken away, having said to them, 'What I ordered you to do, do.'
[3] But Joseph, the friend of Pilate and of the Lord, had been standing there; and knowing they were about to crucify him, he came before Pilate and requested the body of the Lord for burial. [4] And Pilate, having sent to Herod, requested his body. [5] And Herod said: 'Brother Pilate, even if no one had requested him, we would have buried him, since indeed Sabbath is dawning. For in the Law it has been written: The sun is not to set on one put to death.'
And he gave him over to the people before the first day of their feast of the Unleavened Bread. [6] But having taken the Lord, running, they were pushing him and saying, 'Let us drag along the Son of God now that we have power over him.' [7] And they clothed him with purple and sat him on a chair of judgment, saying: 'Judge justly, King of Israel.' [8] And a certain one of them, having brought a thorny crown, put it on the head of the Lord. [9] And others who were standing there were spitting in his face, and others slapped his cheeks. Others were jabbing him with a reed; and some scourged him, saying, 'With such honor let us honor the Son of God.'
[10] And they brought two wrongdoers and crucified the Lord in the middle of them.

 

[doppelganger]

The context of the story in GPet further shows that it was the Jews doing the crucifying in that version of the Passion:

But he was silent as having no pain. [11] And when they had set the cross upright, they inscribed that [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]THIS IS THE KING OF ISRAEL[/SIZE].[/FONT] [12] And having put his garments before him, they divided them up and threw as a gamble for them. [13] But a certain one of those wrongdoers reviled them, saying: 'We have been made suffer thus because of the wrong that we have done; but this one, having become Savior of men, what injustice had he done to you?' [14] And having become irritated at him, they ordered that there be no leg-breaking, so that he might die tormented.
[15] But is was midday, and darkness held fast all Judea; and they were distressed and anxious lest the sun had set, since he was still living. [For] it is written for them: Let not the sun set on one put to death. [16] And someone of them said: 'Give him to drink gall with vinegary wine.' And having made a mixture, they gave to drink. [17] And they fulfilled all things and completed the sins on their own head. [18] But many went around with lamps, thinking that it was night, and they fell. [19] And the Lord screamed out, saying: 'My power, O power, you have forsaken me.' And having said this, he was taken up.

If the "they" doing the crucifying were the Romans, "they" wouldn't have cared whether they were violating part of the Jewish law in carrying out the sentence.

Other interesting tidbits in this passage:

(1) Notice it is one of the criminals whose legs are unbroken, not Jesus. The ordinary way of finishing off a victim of crucifixion was to break the legs or remove the foot support so that the victim's full weight is pulled across the chest through the outstretched arms, effectively causing suffocation in a matter of minutes (we see this in "John's" version where the legs of the two criminals are broken).
(2) Jesus is poisoned to death, which is why he dies after being given the drink while on the cross.
(3) The reason he is poisoned is because the Jews are afraid that they haven't finished his execution before nightfall, and this is because of the confusion caused by a mid-day eclipse.

 

[Luminous]

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays,
so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing.
The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take
Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God.
This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by
either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

i heard the romans were surprised he died so quickly and had to jab him to make sure he wasn't faking.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben if the NT was written against the Jewish people then why do we see just how important the Jewish people were to God.

+++Ben: Because you are one of a kind.

[quoate] I only see God's love for the Jews when I read the NT.[/quote]

+++Ben: That's amazing! I think only you know how. You must have been born thus.

Ben, Jesus came not to change the law, but that it would be fulfilled.

+++Ben: That's only verse 17 of Matthew 5. Read 18 and 19. He warned us to do the
same. It means that the Law was not over with his having fulfilled it. It remains to
be fulfilled in the life of everyone of us.

The whole Pauline policy that has caused all the troubles to the Jews is reduced into
two words: "Replacement Theology." Have you ever heard about it?

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Charity]

+++Ben: Because you are one of a kind.

[quoate] I only see God's love for the Jews when I read the NT.

+++Ben: That's amazing! I think only you know how. You must have been born thus.



+++Ben: That's only verse 17 of Matthew 5. Read 18 and 19. He warned us to do the
same. It means that the Law was not over with his having fulfilled it. It remains to
be fulfilled in the life of everyone of us.

The whole Pauline policy that has caused all the troubles to the Jews is reduced into
two words: "Replacement Theology." Have you ever heard about it?

Ben: <*)))><

Ben I hope you aren't getting upset with me for these questions, but I really want to know and understand why you feel the way you do...(I mean you, as a Jew.) Please explain "Replacement Theology" to me, No I am not familiar with that term.
By the way you ended your post am I leaving you wondering, or are you just giving up hope that I will ever understand what you are trying to say? Sorry I really don't mean to be annoying, just curious.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben I hope you aren't getting upset with me for these questions, but I really want to know and understand why you feel the way you do...(I mean you, as a Jew.) Please explain "Replacement Theology" to me, No I am not familiar with that term.
By the way you ended your post am I leaving you wondering, or are you just giving up hope that I will ever understand what you are trying to say? Sorry I really don't mean to be annoying, just curious.

Charity, you never worry about my getting upset at you. You know I love your cookies.

Replacement Theology is the intentional policy to displace the Jewish People from
their priviledged position viv-a-vis their Divine choice before God and replace them
with Christianity, which was Paul's purpose. You can have a better idea if you read
Galatians 4:21-31. Paul considers Mount Sinai, or God's Covenant with the Jewish
People as an old piece of something good only to be discarded and replaced by the Christian NT.
That's when the misnomer "Old and New Testaments" started to be used.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Charity]

Charity, you never worry about my getting upset at you. You know I love your cookies.

Replacement Theology is the intentional policy to displace the Jewish People from
their priviledged position viv-a-vis their Divine choice before God and replace them
with Christianity, which was Paul's purpose. You can have a better idea if you read
Galatians 4:21-31. Paul considers Mount Sinai, or God's Covenant with the Jewish
People as an old piece of something good only to be discarded and replaced by the Christian NT.
That's when the misnomer "Old and New Testaments" started to be used.

Ben: <*)))><

Thanks for your understanding love. I will read the scriptures and see what I receive from them.
Cookies are ready, would you like tea with those?

 

[Ben Masada]

Thanks for your understanding love. I will read the scriptures and see what I receive from them.
Cookies are ready, would you like tea with those?

It's too cold in here today. Your fresh cookies would indeed do a lot of good.
Especially with a cup of tea of Chamomile to calm me down.

Ben: <*)))>< :drool:

 

[kai]

The context of the story in GPet further shows that it was the Jews doing the crucifying in that version of the Passion:

If the "they" doing the crucifying were the Romans, "they" wouldn't have cared whether they were violating part of the Jewish law in carrying out the sentence.

Other interesting tidbits in this passage:

(1) Notice it is one of the criminals whose legs are unbroken, not Jesus. The ordinary way of finishing off a victim of crucifixion was to break the legs or remove the foot support so that the victim's full weight is pulled across the chest through the outstretched arms, effectively causing suffocation in a matter of minutes (we see this in "John's" version where the legs of the two criminals are broken).
(2) Jesus is poisoned to death, which is why he dies after being given the drink while on the cross.
(3) The reason he is poisoned is because the Jews are afraid that they haven't finished his execution before nightfall, and this is because of the confusion caused by a mid-day eclipse.

fascinating stuff, for someone like me its another reason not to beleive at all, someone is clearly telling porkies ,as we say

 

[Ben Masada]

i heard the romans were surprised he died so quickly and had to jab him to make sure he wasn't faking.

It was Pilate. He was suspictious that some foul play was on the making. The man was an expert in the crucifixion of Jews.
He knew that it was common for some of them to liger even from two to four days on the cross till they expired. That's why
he called the Centurion to check it out before letting Joseph of Arimathea take Jesus off the cross. And according to precendents
in Matthew 28:11-15, we have all the right in the world to speculate that Joseph generously bribed the Centurion not to do anything
else but let Joseph take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead. The pieces of the puzzle get
right in place if we give faith a break and Reason a chance.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Deut 13:1]

That's something I cannot understand: You use Psalm 22:16 to apply the piercing of hands and feet to Jesus.
How about the other thousands of Jews the Romans crucified? How do you think their hands and feet were pierced, with chocolate sticks?

That's simply not fair at all to the others. Did they not bleed when they were pierced? Did they not cry when the nails went through their flesh?
Did they not feel the same agonies that Jesus went through?

But I know you are not responsible for this individualization as if Jesus had been the only Jew crucified by the Romans.
The crooked mind behind the stratagem was Paul, who individualized the cruel fate of thousands of Jews, who went through the same torture.

Ben <*)))>< :sad4:

Re-read what I said. Not once did I say I believe it applies to jesus. Let me make it clear - I believe jesus is nobody of significance, just a ordinary guy like me and you. I was just throwing that information on how Jews view the verse vs. how christians interpret the verse. Besides anyone with a first grade education knows an 'ari' is a 'lion', not 'a piercing of the hands and feet'. Here is what I said since you must have not read it.

On a side note, something interesting that I thought of after reading the thread is Psalm 22.

One of the common verses here that is applied to jesus is 22:16

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

&#1499;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497; &#1505;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1489;&#1493;&#1468;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;, &#1499;&#1468;&#1456;&#1500;&#1464;&#1489;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;: &#1506;&#1458;&#1491;&#1463;&#1514; &#1502;&#1456;&#1512;&#1461;&#1506;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;, &#1492;&#1460;&#1511;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;&#1508;&#1493;&#1468;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;; &#1499;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488;&#1458;&#1512;&#1460;&#1497;, &#1497;&#1464;&#1491;&#1463;&#1497; &#1493;&#1456;&#1512;&#1463;&#1490;&#1456;&#1500;&#1464;&#1497;

Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

&#1492;&#1493;&#1465;&#1513;&#1473;&#1460;&#1497;&#1506;&#1461;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;, &#1502;&#1460;&#1508;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497; &#1488;&#1463;&#1512;&#1456;&#1497;&#1461;&#1492;; &#1493;&#1468;&#1502;&#1460;&#1511;&#1468;&#1463;&#1512;&#1456;&#1504;&#1461;&#1497; &#1512;&#1461;&#1502;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; &#1506;&#1458;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;&#1514;&#1464;&#1504;&#1460;&#1497;

In both verses the same hebrew word is used, ari which means lion. The verses translate the same word differently in the first, as "they pierced my hands and my feet", which some believe to refer to jesus. 5 verses down, they translate that word correctly as "lion". Just thought I'd share this since your thread made me think of it.

Notice, what I said.

 

[lew0049]

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays,
so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing.
The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take
Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God.
This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:
The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by
either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

Regarding to the first reason: if this is true then I'm assuming everyone that was crucified was beaten/flogged as badly? Also, the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead as you well know, hence when he was turned over to Pilate. As for the third, I really don't understand what you are saying, can you elaborate? (not trying to be sarcastic)


One simple statement that I came across in the Bible was more than enough evidence to assure me that Jesus was crucified and definitely pierced in the side:

John 19:34 (doesn't matter what version)
34

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.


The important part of this verse is "blood and water". Why? Because its interesting the Gospel of John claims that not only blood but water came out. A little background on crucification (in case you or someone else doesn't know) is that asphyxiation was the cause of death. The muscles are stressed and the chest is essentially put in an inhaled position. To exhale a person would have to push up on his feet (hence why legs/knees were broken). One can only do this for so long obviously because exhaustion would occur. As a person's breathing slows, he/she goes into "respiratory acidosis" where carbon dioxide in the blood is dissolved as carbonic acid causing acidity in the blood to increase. In turn, an irregular heartbeat occurs b/c of the lack of breathing.
Also, the "hypovolemic shock" that he was experiencing would have caused a rapid heart rate - resulting in the collection of a clear fluid around the heart and the lungs called "pericardial and pleural effusion." So when the Gospel of John states water and blood came out, it is nearly undeniable evidence that Jesus was pierced in the side:
1. a layman who is not an medical expert would not have known to put 'water and blood' - the medical conditions above weren't discovered until recently (i believe the 1900s or late 1800s)
2. unless the author of the Gospel of John witnessed someone stabbed and killed in the lungs and/or heart, who is in the three conditions mentioned above, then why would the author put water? Even if you claim the church tampered with the gospels, they woldnt have known to do this.

 

[Deut 13:1]

One simple statement that I came across in the Bible was more than enough evidence to assure me that Jesus was crucified and definitely pierced in the side:

John 19:34 (doesn't matter what version)
34

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

I don't think anyone disputes that he was crucified, I just don't see the significance of him being crucified. Lots of people were crucified, in fact, there are books written about it, are all of them G-d as well?

 

[Ben Masada]

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays,
so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing.
The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take
Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God.
This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.



Regarding to the first reason: if this is true then I'm assuming everyone that was crucified was beaten/flogged as badly? Also, the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead as you well know, hence when he was turned over to Pilate. As for the third, I really don't understand what you are saying, can you elaborate? (not trying to be sarcastic)

That everyone that was crucified was first tortured, was a Roman policy as a matter of course, in order to break down the spirit of resistence.
If you remember, the crowds, if that was ever true, asked only that he be crucified. They did not ask for him to be tortured first.
But the Romans had to apply the scourging for a reason. If you read John 19:1, the scourging prior to be sending out to the Calvary was a step
in the course of procedures.

I do not well know that the Leaders wanted Jesus dead. Only the Sadducees, and not on a personal basis. But because they were under pressure
by the Romans if they wanted to keep their jobs.

The third reason, as we have from Matthew 27:54, makes the whole thing illogical because if the Centurion and his men did confess that Jesus
was indeed the son of God, they could not add that act of cruelty if it had not been demanded, and was never a custom among the Romans.
It was not even an item in the procedures.

Ben: <*)))>< :no:

 

[lew0049]

Thanks for the clarification Ben and to be honest, I don't have much time to reply at the moment but did you read the rest of my post regarding the medical examination??

 

[lew0049]

I don't think anyone disputes that he was crucified, I just don't see the significance of him being crucified. Lots of people were crucified, in fact, there are books written about it, are all of them G-d as well?

Well thats a completely didn't subject, I was just giving the medical evidence found in John points to him being pierced in the side The fact he was crucified doesn't make him God or anyone else God at all.

 

[Ben Masada]

Thanks for the clarification Ben and to be honest, I don't have much time to reply at the moment but did you read the rest of my post regarding the medical examination??

Yes Lew0049, I read the rest of your post. Are you a Doctor? How do you explain Dr. Luke's bloody sweating of Jesus in the Getsemane?
He said that Jesus' sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground. (Luke 22:44)
Don't you think Dr. Luke was consulted before the "blood and water" was interpolated? He probably would sanction the interpolation.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Charity]

Yes Lew0049, I read the rest of your post. Are you a Doctor? How do you explain Dr. Luke's bloody sweating of Jesus in the Getsemane?
He said that Jesus' sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground. (Luke 22:44)
Don't you think Dr. Luke was consulted before the "blood and water" was interpolated? He probably would sanction the interpolation.

Ben: <*)))><

Ben, Lew0049 is correct with his post on the crucifixion. As for as Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane the medical term for what happened to Jesus is Diapedesis. It was recorded in both ancient and modern times.
The cause is usually brought on by violent mental emotion, or stress. I think knowing you were about to be crucified would certainly bring on this stress. Of course you would have to endure and withstand the brutal flogging first, which was a Roman speciality.....
Diapededesis is the movement or passage of blood cells especially the white blood cells, through intact capillary walls into surrounding body tissue also referred to as migration.
How are you doing Ben? I just baked cookies, shall I fix the tea?

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, Lew0049 is correct with his post on the crucifixion. As for as Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane the medical term for what happened to Jesus is Diapedesis. It was recorded in both ancient and modern times.
The cause is usually brought on by violent mental emotion, or stress. I think knowing you were about to be crucified would certainly bring on this stress. Of course you would have to endure and withstand the brutal flogging first, which was a Roman speciality.....
Diapededesis is the movement or passage of blood cells especially the white blood cells, through intact capillary walls into surrounding body tissue also referred to as migration.
How are you doing Ben? I just baked cookies, shall I fix the tea?

What took you so long to reappear? Having problems with the computer again? I was wondering: Where is Charity? You know I can't go without your cookies. :drool:

Wow! And you came back with a fantastic Medical lesson to enrich my understanding. That's an interesting stuff to learn. But don't forget: Thousands of other
Jews went through the same. It's a pity that we didn't have a Paul to make a Christ of everyone of them.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Charity]

What took you so long to reappear? Having problems with the computer again? I was wondering: Where is Charity? You know I can't go without your cookies. :drool:

Wow! And you came back with a fantastic Medical lesson to enrich my understanding. That's an interesting stuff to learn. But don't forget: Thousands of other
Jews went through the same. It's a pity that we didn't have a Paul to make a Christ of everyone of them.

Ben: <*)))><

Wow Ben! how did I know you would remind me that others were crucified also?
I realize there were thousands that died needlessly. Unfortunately they didn't have the writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to tell the story. Paul only carried out what he himself learned and come to believe about Jesus.
But now to tell you that I am so glad that you missed me and noticed I hadn't posted for several days...No Love my computer is fine, I was just joining some friends of some of the Holiday festivities the last few days. Those cookies I am saving just for you because your so special. :drool:
The medical lesson is because I am a medical person it just sort of flows from my inner being. Sorry hope you didn't think I was being too assertive with my knowledge.