And shooting my gun into the air every time my team wins. If bullets happen to fall on people who are injured or killed, it's not my problem. It's not like I deliberately shot them. It was just bad luck for them, right? Why should my freedom to celebrate the way I want in the city be infringed upon?
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No more babies being delivered at NY hospital
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I've never been political before this COVID thing. Even then my opinions have nothing to do with political parties. But usually when peoples lives ones are sick I doubt they consult misinformation from media, Biden, or trump on medical matters.
I am a bit surprised if that be the case for the minority of activist but mostly I see opposition related to healthcare and work are concerns not political parties.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
The reports of research that I have read indicate that those folks infected with covid are contagious 3-4 days prior to any symptoms and may, in fact, be most contagious 1-2 days before feeling ill.
This means that an unvaccinated health care worker who may go into quarantine immediately upon having symptoms or feeling ill, may already, in the interim, have passed the virus on to dozens of patients/co-workers/members of the public.
This means that an unvaccinated health care worker who may go into quarantine immediately upon having symptoms or feeling ill, may already, in the interim, have passed the virus on to dozens of patients/co-workers/members of the public.
PureX
Veteran Member
Good riddance to those who quit. They had no business being in health care to begin with.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
The problem with your line of thought is that Covid has several days of infected spreadable time before the first symptoms show up. Also nurses and doctors tend to be extremely hard-working people who will “battle through” any minor symptoms they have so as to get to work.
no hospital will hire you unless you have your full spread of vaccinations. Medical personnel also have to get vaccinated against hepatitis B which the public generally does not get vaccinated against. Adding in Covid is just another in a long line of mandatory vaccinations for health professionals.
Just like your kid cannot go to public school without presenting his full vaccination record. No vaccinations = you can homeschool ….. but no public school.
This has been true for many years
The vaccination is limited too. Just like I pointed out above you can wander the streets and stay at home without getting the vaccination, but you can’t have a job at a hospital without vaccination.
You can drive a car, and you can drink. Just not both at the same time, or you go to prison, because your callous (most would say ‘evil’) self-centered disregard for human life is an immediate threat to all people around you.
See?…limited.
This is true, but your chances of being infected from an unvaccinated person is much, much, MUCH higher than from a vaccinated individual.
You also stand a chance of being infected with other bacteria and viruses from someone wearing a mask or surgical gloves, but when they take precautions you’re safety is greatly increased. Nothing is perfect. These are undeniable facts and the reason why medical personnel are required (they don’t get the option) They. Are. Required to take safety precautions, for the patients benefit whether, they like them or not.
All of your anti-vax supporters are horribly cherry-picking your data to show some vague naïve semblance of thinking that your viewpoint is well supported.
It is not.
Your viewpoint is wrong.
Your viewpoint is dangerous.
You have already been played.
Stop destroying the good in favor of the perfect, and being the direct cause of tens of thousands (and soon to be hundreds of thousands) of additional deaths that could have been stopped, if only the right wing media would stop lying to the constituents of the right wing politicians, and killing them, - - - - just to give the GOP politicians better anger-driven voters.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I'll say it again, when you work in healthcare you don't get to unload your stuff on patients and needlessly endanger them.
And boohoo. Other vaccinations have long been a requirement.
We're better off without so we can get in people who are more better able to focus on the wellbeing of their patients.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Um, how do you know who infected who?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I didn't like the Patriot act. I'm not sure what you mean by suppression of whistle blowers. Red flag laws seem to support unproven whistle blowing and suppress freedom.Do you mean your kind of freedom or my kind of freedom?
Yes, big brother is getting bigger. Start with the Patriot Act, go over to oppression of whistle blowers and trends in voter suppression and end with Texas' anti abortion bill.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
It's running it's course regardless. Vaccine mandates are going to change anything, except for the people who develop other problems because of the shot.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's amazing on how people don't trust health workers. Just politically bought hacks like Fauci.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Sigh. You can spread it anyway. That argument doesn't wash.
Right... survive a 1 percent chance of death. You have a better chance of hitting your head in a fall and dying.
How about not living life in fear? How about not worrying about other peoples health decisions because that's not our business?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Not even close. The so called facts change weekly.
We'll see, won't we.
Some people will see this as a result of imposing vaccines. I see it as a result of refusing vaccines during a pandemic in which others have an interest in seeing hospital nurses vaccinated, and I'll bet that the majority of vaccinated people see it that way as well.
The job requirement for hospital nursing just changed. It now includes a COVID vaccine. Previously, it was limited to things like passing nursing school, being accredited in nursing, or being on time to work and coming clean and sober.
People that can't do these things, and those who can't or won't adapt to change get phased out. They're not only an increased danger to themselves and their families, but to their patients and even their employers. You don't want to deal with the lawsuits that arise because somebody caught COVID in a hospital that permitted its staff to be unvaccinated.
What do you think? I'd say a better question is who do you hold responsible. It's a rhetorical question, since we already know the answer, or should if we are in touch with popular opinion. I assure you that there are very few vaccinated people blaming vaccine mandates for hospitals in crisis. That might be useful for antivaxxers to know before holding out stories like this as evidence that vaccine mandates are harming them. They don't blame who many antivaxxers would like to see blamed, those promoting or requiring vaccines, but rather, those that make it necessary to let them go by refusing them.
You probably haven't seen more than a tip of the antipathy for antivaxxers iceberg, because you probably don't frequent the sites that I do. I assure you that if you went to these places with your present post, you would see most comments supporting mandates for nurses and the willingness to let them go if they prefer to refuse them. You would also find comments supporting the nurses refusal to get a vaccine as well as condemnation of the requirement, but they'll be from other unvaccinated people.
Not surprisingly, there are almost no provaxxers that want unvaccinated nurses working in hospitals, and almost no antivaxxers expressing support that unvaccinated nurses should lose their jobs. It really is an "whose ox was gored" issue, which means that a given event will be seen differently depending on the degree to which the viewer’s self-interest is involved. People that don't want a vaccine will call mandates government overreach, and the rest will find the mandates appropriate and helpful.
Their nature? You might have thought that accepting medical consensus was their nature. I don't consider those people to be nurses any longer, just as you might not consider any of your flock who are in serious conflict with the basic teachings of your religion a Christian in good standing. A nurse who refuses a vaccine isn't much different from a Catholic who refuses communion or denies the divinity of Christ. You can only go so far before you are outside acceptable parameters of the group you self-identify with.
"The Overton window is the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time. It is also known as the window of discourse." We can generalize this to other areas besides politics, including attitudes on vaccination and religious status. You can be too far from mainstream opinion to be though of by them as one of them. I think that some of these insurrectionists may be discovering that most others don't consider them either patriots or even American philosophically. They're so right wing that they fell off the bird, where wingspan is metaphor for the Overton window.
The people that could be convinced to become vaccinated by the science got their vaccines. Those that could be inspired by a sense of community responsibility got theirs. Those that don't want to be excluded from public places that require proof of vaccination got theirs. Those who were afraid to get and give COVID to loved ones got theirs. Those who could be persuaded by a beer, baseball tickets, or a cash reward got theirs. To think that those who remained unvaccinated could be brought into the fold with less peer pressure is to ignore the fact that they were not willing to vaccinated before the nation began applying pressure.
Those that could be convinced by peer pressure got theirs. Those that could be convinced because they thought that losing their jobs was bad for themselves and their families have had theirs. Those that needed to see death from COVID up close to be convinced got theirs.
What's left are people that won't be vaccinated until somebody hold them down like a two-year old and injects them. And these people are often heard to saying, get off my back, you're making me more recalcitrant, as if that were possible.
Do you really believe that? Do you believe that there are healthcare workers who were ready to roll up their sleeves, but changed their minds when others supported that choice because they interpreted it as pressure and a good reason to refuse the vaccine? It's like saying that I was ready to never go out drunk driving until I learned that there was pressure being applied to drunk drivers, so I became one. It's not credible. We wouldn't accept that explanation, either.
There are really only two reasons why people who have no medical contraindication to vaccine refuse them. They either feel social pressure from the tribe they identify with and wear their unvaccinated status like they wear red caps, or they are just afraid.
People give a multitude of reasons for refusing vaccination, such as refusing because they were pressured to get a vaccine, but that's simply not credible as outlined. Many said that they were waiting for FDA approval, but that's clearly incorrect, too, as these people aren't moved by the advice of scientists. Some said that their reason was that the vaccine is experimental, but then these same people took Regeneron or ivermectin when neither was an established therapy. It's not hard to understand what their true motivations are, and that they are not what they claim them to be. Apparently, for about 10% of the antivaxxers, it's not the vaccine they're afraid of - it's the needle. Many people of color simply fear white man's medicine. But how many will feel the need to say that they have some other more rational reason, such as waiting to see how others do, when they aren't even looking.
It really is time to stop listening to these people as they dither endlessly, as they promise to make rational decisions just as soon as they have enough data to do so, and recognize that nothing will convince them to comply except seeing somebody close die of COVID, or them getting tired of being excluded from jobs and social opportunities. I expect most of these nurses to eventually succumb to the pressure of being unemployable as nurses if not vaccinated. They'll have trouble finding jobs that pay as well if that is their only professional skill, and if they are faced with being unable to provide for their families and children, or having to give up braces and private school for their kids (or a roof), will finally relent. Those that don't will remain outside of professional nursing.
Federal government mandated vaccines have been legal since at least 1905 due to SCOTUS ruling Jacobson v Massachusetts.
What Makes Vaccine Mandates Legal? | JSTOR Daily
Also, maybe the whole State of Idaho will fall?
Idaho hospitals begin rationing health care amid COVID surge
Or maybe Florida, Georgia, or Louisiana?
'There are only so many beds': COVID-19 surge hits hospitals
How bad do things have to get before you start realizing that Public Health is more important then "supposed freedoms".
Altfish
Veteran Member
I struggle with this "I won't be told what to do" argument.
In my jobs, at various times ....
- I had to wear a shirt and tie,
- I had to turn up before 9 and stay until 5
- I had to turn up 5-days a week
- I had to take out special insurance if I wanted to use my car for work
- I had to attend training courses.
- And in one case when I was working in sewers, I had to have an injection against Weil's Disease
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
This comment isn't to devalue on your experience: I think it's both ways-from the perspective of the patients and loved ones as well as healthcare professionals. In a moral point of view, it could be fear or denial in part of the parent and child who didn't want to wear a mask. I can see why the healthcare provider was upset. Though, I don't believe this is always the case.... or that provaxxers are the victims in general because "they" care for others health and other people do not. Policy wise, yes, I would have sided with the nurse. Moral wise, I'd understand both views but I wouldn't know how to address it since both sides have their points and should not-and should not-devalue each person's feelings and opinions about the pandemic and their emotions attached to it.
I don't think there'd be anything else your sister could have done, really. That's different than the nurses complaints and my point about a unhealthy work environment. If I went to a doctor's appointment and saw doctors treating their nurses second class because they don't want to get the vaccine, I won't go there. There should be a better relationship with medical professionals and employers in an ideal setting. But when you're denied that and use the vaccine and "we care for people you don't" as an excuse, it's not a good incentive for people to do the productive thing.
Its counterproductive.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
If you're vaccinated, masked and 6 feet away from everyone, the chances of spreading it are pretty low.
My cousin died from it. No pre-existing conditions. He was 42 years old.
My uncle survived it, but still has long-term issues. He is 62 years old.
Are we "living in fear" when we wear seatbelts? Are we "living in fear" when we don't drink and drive? Are we "living in fear" when we get vaccinated for small pox?
Are we "living in fear" when we create building codes to ensure the structures we build don't collapse?
It's called being smart and taking preventative measures to ensure maximum safety for all.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I honestly don't see how medical exemption plays in this, though. I also don't see how its misinformation or not accepting the facts that plays into people's healthcare choices. If anything, the facts made them choose what's best for their health being and others.
A little off track:
Why are medically exempt people excluded from getting the vaccine when both exempt and non exempt can spread the virus?
What about the choice to not take the vaccine make the non-exempt much more at risk than an exempt unvaccinated person?
If it were about the spread of the disease more than pushing people to get the vaccine, I'd hope there would be some studies on relieving the exempt so everyone can take it.