1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by KenS, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229

    No. I said vax and unvax can spread the virus (drive drunk and swerve).

    We are both endangering to others going by vax logic.

    Other than that, you'd have to quote before I agree or disagree with what you're saying.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Please do not make false accusations of others. Those supporting vaccinations are not the ones using improper logic. As usual you ignored the point of the analogy and came up with your own incorrect interpretation.

    If an unvaccinated person complains about restrictions placed on them that are not placed on the vaccinated then by the same logic they should support the rights of others to drive while intoxicated.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    Your analogy was a small post that didn't add much detail or context.

    I use provax as the opposite of antivax. Fortunately, not every provaxxer (those for the vaccine) uses seatbelt analogies, telling people they are misinformed, and tell people they are killing others and should be locked up... and thankfully not all antivaxxers (those against the vaccine) are listening to conspiracy theories and don't care about people.

    It's not the same argument. Both vax and unvax have to follow the rules of the road. The problem is the government put the same restrictions in all areas when in real life each road and area has their own speed limit. If you're on the highway or interstate and don't go with the traffic (not the speed limit) you can get a ticket--for just following the rules.

    Which means that drivers have to use "their" best judgement not just for themselves but the cars around them too.

    Unvax aren't complaining about "road rules" but the new rules and application of those rules in light of assuming the same risk, same traffic pattern, and same area warrants one universal speed limit.

    That's the problem not the mandate in and of itself.
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Your argument fails for one simple reason. The risks are not the same for the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

    The unvaccinated are over five times more likely to catch the disease so they are five more times likely to pass it on. Drunk driving is illegal due to similar statistics.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    The risks aren't the same for all unvaccinated. So there's no universal speed limit to mandate for all unvaccinated because the risk varies.

    The problem is generalization using the facts and application of mandates not the facts and mandates themselves.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The risks are not the same for all drunk drivers. Sometimes when laws are made they have to be made based upon averages. Your "the risk varies" argument fails because on average the risk presented by those refusing to get vaccinated is much higher than the risk of those that do get vaccinated.
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    I said that the unvaccinated varies in their risks in relation to the vaccinated.

    I know that unvaccinated is more at risk of getting COVID than vaccinated. I'm saying we are both at A risk and unvaccinated (and vaccinated) people within their own groups vary in risk as well.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    It is not just that the unvaccinated are more likely to get the disease. That is not why they are limited in what they do. They are more likely to pass the disease on. That justifies limiting their actions.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    My point is that should be determined not just by vac status but other factors involved.... just as we wouldn't judge a person is drunk by swerving on the road, there are other factors involved to know why that person swerved and hit someone.

    The mandate is generalizing a whole set of unvaccinated people solely because they are at A risk of spreading the disease regardless of how little risk some of them are in relation to their peer.

    The mandate needs to go off more than just vaccination status just as going to court and accusing a driver he killed someone because he was drunk won't hold up to court without evidence to that specific situation.

    The problem with the mandate is it generalizes the unvaxxed population (making every road having a universal speed limit) when in real life people are just different living, different risk, and so forth.

    Since the government cannot track each individual person, that's why the issue. It's the generalization and application of mandates on people a good chunk of people with whom it is not appropriate.

    Maybe after awhile they'd see it backfire, people loose their jobs more profoundly, the Delta Variant takes off despite our attempt to control it, more breakthroughs, and new boosters every other year. People act like mandates are a magic wand.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That is simple not feasible with a country of over 300 million.. And all sorts of weird things could happen. Laws and regulations have to be based on what we know now.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    300 million makes it even worse because "ideally" we can't generalize the entire population so people would be at a standstill. Unfortunately, loosing jobs and sanity even (no pun) isn't the same as getting and paying for a ticket a person doesn't want.

    I don't see the end justifying the means is what I'm saying.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Not true. We can make statements about statistics since that by its very nature is more accurate with larger numbers.
     
  13. Alienistic

    Alienistic Anti-conformity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2021
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +128
    Religion:
    Anti-conformity
    I don’t live in paranoia or fear, or hatred towards certain humans. A society is composed of individuals, and it’s not my place to call anyone dangerous without being omniscient to their circumstances. If an individual is allergic, has heart problems, is naturally immune, is pregnant, practices great hygiene in consideration of others, has any other health risks, has questions, knows of close people messed up by the vaccine or any other ones and therefore is skeptical themselves, thinks that this was rushed and needs more time, does their own due diligence- it is disgusting to me to call everyone of these people dangerous, shaming and guilting them, uncaring of others or society, throwing some sort of conspiracy hype slogans at everyone. I’ve no problems working in society around vaccinated or not vaccinated. I won’t live this life in bubble wrap, paranoia, or hatred due to political or any other narratives meant to demonize certain people.

    I don’t know of many people who put all of their trust and blind faith in their governments. The media- when one can clearly see the bias, narrative, fear, divide being painted, who would put their trust and blind faith entirely into what’s being reported?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Alienistic

    Alienistic Anti-conformity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2021
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +128
    Religion:
    Anti-conformity
    This is an entirely new delivery mechanism. Not nearly as established as the rest of the vaccinations.

    And would you disagree that now that it is being made available to billions of people that it is and can be considered experimental still? Many aspects of trials were bypassed due to having pandemic status.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    If that were the case, then they would not tell everyone they should get the vaccine by the same level of urgency. People have to think on their own their urgency levels, morals, "and" facts and decide if they want to take the vaccine or not. That's what is meant by "freedom" and rights. The mandates issue isn't an isolated thing. It's a "last straw" effect. Another reason I heard (so thinking) was the goal(s) were not clear enough. I would hope people would have clear goals before taking a course of action. I see the mandates like ripping out all the speed limit signs and making it universal.... then blaming people who get into more accidents because "they" didn't follow the new speed limits as their respective peers.

    Anyway. Not every country has speed limits and not everyone drives on the same side of the road.

    Universal mandates just doesn't work and that's why there is pushback-not because of the mandates but the application of them as well as the context in which those mandates were made.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Okay, we cannot order everyone to get the vaccine. That is beyond what is presently possible legally and would you want to live in a country where we were forced to do that? What can be done is to attach consequences to not getting the vaccine and that is what has been done and the complaints about that are all illogical so far.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    47,980
    Ratings:
    +29,458
    Religion:
    Atheist
    No, at this point it is past the experimental stage. Does it work? Yes. Does it have any more side effects than other vaccines, none that have been observed in hundreds of millions of cases.

    Worldwide the number of people killed by the virus is in the millions. The number of people killed by the vaccine? I could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Alienistic

    Alienistic Anti-conformity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2021
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +128
    Religion:
    Anti-conformity
    Through CDC and Vaers, reports through the middle of July... 12,300 death reports from vaccine, in which the CDC reduced to 6,080. I don’t think that you have that many fingers, and that’s just in the US through the middle of July.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    Do you have a CDC link citation?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,240
    Ratings:
    +13,229
    This is the point of complaints. It's forcing people to take the vaccine under unapologetic coercion. I don't think Biden can make it a federal law overriding states.

    It's more than just "shoot! I got a traffic ticket. Stupid cop" type of complaint.

    I mean they are even going door to door to get people to vaccinate.

    Is it because it's been declared a national emergency that provax people in the US don't see this or they feel it's an antivax thing and dismiss it entirely?

    I mean I bet if I asked Biden is it coercion he'd say yes with all the push he's doing.
     
Loading...