no hell

[9-10ths_Penguin]

they are. the wickedness of their self is annihilated. their spirit returns to god without the ''self''. the wicked ''self'' is destroyed. wicked people don't get eternal life, because they didn't follow a path of virtue.

Okay - so it is sadistic, then.

 

[syo]

Okay - so it is sadistic, then.

annihilation doesn't cause pain. sadistic is painful, no?

 

[Katzpur]

if they are not annihilated, then what happens to the wicked? but the wicked can repent if they want, and thus they can be saved. but if they don't repent?

I believe that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus will pay the price of the sins of those who repent and accept His offer prior to the First Resurrection. Those who haven't done, will essentially have to pay the price for their own sins and will continue to suffer mental anguish for the 1000 year-millennium. Then, having paid the debt, they too will enter Heaven, but with a lesser glory than those who rose at the First Resurrection. The only ones who will end up elsewhere (Outer Darkness and complete separation from God for eternity) are those who stand before Him and say, "I know who you are. I know understand your Son's Atonement. And I want no part of you." This is my belief.

 

[Katzpur]

So in essence, God decides that those that will not comply with His desires will live eternally in Hell.

God will allow everyone who wants to be with Him to be with Him, and my belief is that ultimately 99.99999999% of the people who have ever lived will end up wanting to be with him. Only those who say they want nothing to do with Him will not go to Heaven. They will be separated from Him forever by their own decision to do just that.

But we want "[the]sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" stigma to go away. Given the belief that He does send people to torment in hell, I really don't see this going away.

I guess what you're saying is that nothing should matter. There should be no consequence for one's choices and behavior and we should all just live happily every after. Did I get that right?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I think you may be missing something here, because that would include you, as well as everyone. It's so easy to look at all those "evil people out there", comparing ourselves with them and conclude we're not too bad, but by God's standard even thoughts of hate or wrongful anger is murder in the heart.

Really? Your God sees no distinction between a child murderer and someone who has hateful or wrongful THOUGHTS that they never act upon? That hardly sounds like a moral being to me and certainly not one worthy of anyone's worship.

 

[QuestioningMind]

of course we can ignore the OT because the NT is that counts. the OT is included in the bible because it has the profecies of jesus coming. historical purposes. the OT alone means nothing, it's dead. only the NT counts.

Whoa... so we can ignore the OT. Is that because the OT isn't real and the God depicted in the OT didn't really exist? If that's the case, then we should assume that the prophecies contained in it aren't real either, right?

Or was the God of the OT real? If that's the case are you saying that God realized what an immoral thug he was by condoning slavery and decided to change his ways? Are you saying that God's morality changes depending on God's mood? So it's possible that tomorrow God will decide that murdering children is moral behavior and that it then somehow WOULD be moral behavior to murder children?

This is all so very confusing.

 

[syo]

Whoa... so we can ignore the OT. Is that because the OT isn't real and the God depicted in the OT didn't really exist? If that's the case, then we should assume that the prophecies contained in it aren't real either, right?

Or was the God of the OT real? If that's the case are you saying that God realized what an immoral thug he was by condoning slavery and decided to change his ways? Are you saying that God's morality changes depending on God's mood? So it's possible that tomorrow God will decide that murdering children is moral behavior and that it then somehow WOULD be moral behavior to murder children?

This is all so very confusing.

the only purpose the OT has is the prophesies for the coming of christ, nothing more. so we ignore it. only christ matters.

EDIT
but most of my fellow christians accept the OT. personally, i don't accept it. i see it more as historical.

 

[QuestioningMind]

the only purpose the OT has is the prophesies for the coming of christ, nothing more. so we ignore it. only christ matters.

How silly. Jesus clearly believed in the God of the OT but you don't. And you actually think you're a Christian?

 

[syo]

How silly. Jesus clearly believed in the God of the OT but you don't. And you actually think you're a Christian?

where is love in the OT?

 

[QuestioningMind]

where is love in the OT?

Dose Jesus believe in the God of the OT?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

annihilation doesn't cause pain. sadistic is painful, no?

Or deliberately cruel.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

where is love in the OT?

Where is it in the NT?

 

[Scott C.]

If God knows best, shouldn't we take our cues from God? If a police officer is on the trail of a serial killer, should he say to himself, "if God hasn't stopped him yet, then maybe the murders are part of God's plan. How am I to know what good might come from whatever murders he's going to commit next? I should let go and let God. If anything truly contrary to God's plan were to happen, God would stop it"?

I find it hard to believe that you really don't understand this. God always encourages all of his children to always do good. He always encourages all of us to always relieve suffering and to help others. He always encourages all of us to rid ourselves and the world of evil through faith and good works. Of course God does not miraculously intervene and stop all evil acts from occurring. That would completely thwart the purpose of our mortal life. And of course if would be ridiculous for me to conclude that because God did not intervene and stop a serial killer from killing 100 people, that I should therefore let the serial killer remain on the loose to continue to kill. God wants me to stop him if I can, obviously.

 

[Desert Snake]

the only purpose the OT has is the prophesies for the coming of christ, nothing more. so we ignore it. only christ matters.

EDIT
but most of my fellow christians accept the OT. personally, i don't accept it. i see it more as historical.

The OT is a collection of books. Some are historical, some Prophetic, some about laws, morals, and what not.
Jesus adherence belief, traditional Christian belief, as well, has a different list of Prophets than standard Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I guess what you're saying is that nothing should matter. There should be no consequence for one's choices and behavior and we should all just live happily every after. Did I get that right?

Not even close.

I struggle to understand how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote.

It would sadden me if one's only incentive to be a good person was fear of torment or annihilation in Hell.

 

[Katzpur]

Not even close.

Sorry.

I struggle to understand how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote.

Well, I did. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. Not sure if that's my fault or yours.

It would sadden me if one's only incentive to be a good person was fear of torment or annihilation in Hell.

It would sadden me as well. It's certainly at the bottom of my list of personal incentives because I wasn't raised to even consider this as a possibility. From my perspective, one has to really put his mind to it if he wants to end up in Hell for eternity.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm simply stating that God's stigma of being a 'sadistic ruler that sends people to torment in Hell' isn't likely to go away if that is indeed what He does.

 

[robocop (actually)]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

There is hell and annihation, hell for people who've been especially bad and annihilation for those who have been relativitely neutral.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm simply stating that God's stigma of being a 'sadistic ruler that sends people to torment in Hell' isn't likely to go away if that is indeed what He does.

Okay, and I said that he doesn't "send people to torment in Hell," at least not for eternity. According to my theology, almost everyone who has ever lived will ultimately end up in Heaven. This includes, Mormons, non-LDS Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans, agnostics and atheists. It includes the dregs of society, the people most Christians say don't stand a chance of being "saved." I believe, as I explicitly stated before, that the only ones who will not end up in Heaven are the ones who, when all is said and done, will stand before Him and say, "I know you; you're God. You're my Creator. You gave me life, and if there was anything good that I had during my life, it was because you gave it to me. I know that your Son, Jesus Christ, was willing to take all of my sins upon himself and be punished in my place. I know that He did so willingly. I know that through Him, an eternity of more wonderful than I can conceivably imagine exists for me. I know you've given me a myriad of chances, over many millenia to think this over, and I have. I want nothing to do you you from this time forward. I want to spend eternity as far from you as possible." Those individuals will get their wish. If you think that's sadistic, so be it.

 

[syo]

Dose Jesus believe in the God of the OT?

we all do. BUT the OT isn't about morality and way of life. it's prophesy for coming of christ and history, nothing more. what god wants for us is in the NT. there is no love in the OT. the OT is what exists before the teachings of christ. the OT is the old world living full of sins and god is angry with the old world. jesus in NT gave a new more loving world. that's why the NT counts, and has the first and last word.